Blood Thinners

Turmeric

by AgentX86 - 2020-07-07 14:36:02

NO! You're risking your life. If aspirin isn't good enough (it's not), there is no way turmeric is going to work. You NEED an anticoagulant. If you can't afford one of the NOACS/DOACS, there's always warfarin.

BTW, My cardiologist recommend turmeric on top of Eliquis for its anti-inflammatory properties. I asked about the conflict with anticoagulants. His reply was "You don't think there are people with arrhythmias in India? ".

Supplements

by Gemita - 2020-07-07 15:04:45

Hello Joe,

The idea of taking a supplement for stroke protection instead of an anticoagulant is very appealing and I wish such a supplement existed.  The only problem I would have with this is knowing just how much of the supplement I would need to take to give me the same level of protection as my anticoagulant gives me against the risk of an AF related stroke.  

Anticoagulants like Apixaban, Rivaroxaban, Dabigatran and Edoxaban have been extensively researched for safety and effectiveness and the appropriate level of the drug placed in each tablet.  I need to be sure that what I am taking will be effective because the potential risks of even short runs of an arrhythmia like AF, Flutter in causing a clot is far too high without protection.  

It is important to study the CHA2DS2-VASc score to assess your individual risk of having a stroke to make sure that you are fully covered Joe, although I note that you feel you are a low risk.  

Curcumin

by IAN MC - 2020-07-07 15:34:30

Hi Joe   I can understand you asking the question , particularly as prescription drugs can easily bankrupt you your side of the pond !

Curcumin , the active ingredient of turmeric is very interesting for both its anti- inflammatory properties and its action as an anti-coagulant . It is highly likely that after much further research, we may well see new prescription blood-thinners containing curcumin. One study suggests that it may be less likely to cause brain-bleeds but it is early days.

But, as Gemita said there are simply no serious studies to indicate what the optimum dosage should be, what drug interactions / side-effects there are.

Don't believe everything you might read about nutritional products ... there simply isn't the scientific evidence to back up the claims YET !

Agent X86 mentioned India where the intake of turmeric is pretty high . Out of curiosity, I looked up the incidence of stroke in India ... it also is very high,  so Curcumin would not appear to be helping them much  ( but there may well be other factors )

I hope you arrive at the right decision

Ian

Turmeric is hard to quantify - warfarin is still pretty damned good

by Protimenow - 2020-07-07 16:47:27

First - none of the things mentioned thin the blood. The blood's thickness or thinness has nothing to do with these drugs. They are anticoagulants. 

An INR test is only valid for anticoagulation resulting from warfarin/coumadin. Other anticoagulants (Plavix, Aspirin, and other NSAIDs) work differently than warfarin. NSAIDs make the platelets less 'sticky' so that clotting may take longer. But an INR test won't show the effect.

Turmeric DOES have anticoagulant effects. It may not be possible to have a reliable predictor of its actual anticoagulant properties, and I don't think there's a test that can determine it. 

You mention that the expensive anticoagulants are essential -- but warfarin would also anticoagulate and be much less expensive than those expensive new patented drugs. 

Warfarin isn't the evil that some people believe it is - millions of people take it. I take it. Managing it may take a while to determine the correct dosage for you, but weekly testing (and, at some clinics, much less frequent testing) can be used to assure that your INR is in the proper range. 

Warfarin was used successfully for many years before the new, expensive, patented anticoagulants became available. 

Personally, I'd probably avoid turmeric. It's probably just too unpredictable. 

Patented anticoagulants

by AgentX86 - 2020-07-07 17:54:21

Just for information. Two drug companies have gotten FDA approval for generic Eliquis (apaxiban). It was a nice Christmas present  from the FDA last year. Almost. Bristol Meyers Squibb's patent runs out in 2023 but has apparently gotten an extension because of some other related patents. It's in the courts now. We can all hope.

Blood thinner costs

by islandgirl - 2020-07-07 20:49:16

Being under 65, I am eleigible for the manufacturer's discount, only costing me $10/month, with the maximum allowable discount totalling about $2500.  This discount gets me through about 3 months..  I also get samples from my EP's office--they save them for me.   My EP won't consider Warfarin, as it is difficult to manage the levels for the seriousness of stroke risk.I also ask the pharmacy yearly compares costs of the blood thinners for me with my insurance.  When I reach my out of pocket, I make sure I get the last dose in late Dec to get me through the first 3 months of the new year.  

65

by AgentX86 - 2020-07-07 23:28:39

65YO isn't the diving line, rather Medicare.  The manufacturer's discounts only apply to private insurance not to Medicare.  The government makse sure that seniors can't catch a break.  And, while there are drug plans that soften the blow, the "donut hole"  is a killer.  The full boat price for Eliquis, for example, is $1400 for three months.  Once one hits the "donut hole" one pays that price until they reach their out-of-pocket maximum.  If you're on Eliquis, you will reach the donut hole, but depending on other drugs you may not come out of it.  If one is going to reach the donut hole, there isn't any point in hoarding drugs.  All it does is postpone the enivetible. 

I've been studying this stuff (I'm 67 and still on private insurance) because I plan on retiring soon,  I have great insurance now and Medicare will be a large step down (and huge cost increase).  "Medicare for all" is no deal if it really is "Medicare".

Blood thinners.

by thejoe056 - 2020-07-08 11:29:07

Thanks for all the advise. It was what I thought I would hear! And as we all know, never what we want to hear. I am 75, very healthy for my age and believe me doing a heart stress test every day 5 days a week!  Obviosly, I hope to be in sinus rythem on my next visit, with no need for thinners after I give my Dr. the sales pitch! (not sure he wants to hear it) I do listen very carefully to his advise and trust it implicitly, but this body belongs to me and GOD!  If my risk factor is vbery low, I'll take it and leave the care in his hands, always better than mine! 

Thanks, Again. Joe.  

Low risk factor

by AgentX86 - 2020-07-08 13:42:11

Take the CHADS2 test. If your score is 0 (it's not), you won't be put on anticoagulants.  A score of one is patient's choice. Two or above is a definite yes.

Anticoagulation is a balance between an ischemic stroke or a hemorrhagic stroke. This is the reason for the CHADS score. The more ischemic risk factors you have the more the table tilts toward mitigating that, rather than hemorrhagic stroke. Trust me, you don't want a stroke. There really are things worse than death.

At your age, Eliquis (apixaban) has been shown to be less risk than the other NOACs/DOACs but they're all a lot better than warfarin. Yes, you are going to pay through the nose for them but what's your life (or ten years conscious but completely paralyzed) worth?

low risk factor! CHADS2

by thejoe056 - 2020-07-08 17:32:41

I am a 1. 75 Nothing else applies. Thanks for the information. Never had Fib other than when the Dr. tried to jack up my pacemaker rate to reset the flutter. Did not work just turned flutter into fib temporarily! I know flutter and fib are birds of a feather. You are right, a stroke would be my worst nightmare. I have a common disease, what I can afford vs what I want to afford!  Beer $7.00 a day Xarlto $16.00 a day HMMM. Thanks again.