Countries to Avoid

I was wondering if there is a list anywhere which advises on which developed countries to avoid if you have an ICD. I'd also like to hear about anyone's experiences abroad. I am more or less talking about countries where there is minimal ICD technology or where there are very few hospitals and cardiologists capable of treating me should my ICD kick in or fail.I am most interested in Great Britain and Europe as destinations.

15 Comments

I would avoid America !

by IAN MC - 2015-06-24 06:06:54

America is "abroad" for me and I would strongly recommend that anyone from Europe does not get ill in the USA. If I had an ICD , and it caused problems I would far rather be in Great Britain and other European countries than in the US, not only would the treatment be as good, if not better, but

It is just that I don't want to be bankrupt !

But to give it due credit ,the U.S. is excellent at treating gunshot wounds ; you have so much experience !

What exactly is your perception of healthcare in other " developed countries " ??

Ian

travel

by Tracey_E - 2015-06-24 08:06:08

The odds of it failing are extremely small, don't let that be a factor in your travel choices.

Your overall health will determine the odds of it firing. Has it fired before? I've had heart problems all my life and have never once needed care while on vacation. I travel all over and don't think twice about it.

Anywhere in Europe is fine. Every dr is trained in cardiology even if it's not specialty. If a hospital is not very close, you can be transported. Look at the map, you're never that far from a major city, no different than the US. Probably closer than some parts of the US.

Get travel insurance. I just took a dozen kids on a cruise out of the country. When we were on the ship at sea there was minimal medical care available, not much more in the ports we stopped at. I got extra insurance for all of us. If anything had happened, we would have been flown back to Miami.

Ian's humor

by Theknotguy - 2015-06-24 10:06:15

Ian's humor is sometimes hard to fathom. What he didn't tell you is that France, Germany, the UK, Canada, and the US are OK to travel if you have a PM.

As TraceyE said, usually the problem isn't with the PM it's with the underlying heart problem. So if you have something going on the PM doesn't take care of, you'll want to research which country can address that problem.

I was having problems with afib and RVR. Got the OK to go the UK because of their heart care. But I also had a procedure in place in case I went into afib with RVR. I had something to do that would give me time to get to a medical facility before things really got out of hand. Fortunately I didn't need to use it even though I did go into afib when I was over there.

As Ian said, if you go out of medical network in the US it'll cost you an arm and a leg and possibly some other body parts too. I had trip medical insurance. Not too bad of a premium but wanted things taken care of in case something went wrong.

Hope you have a good trip.

IAN MC.......

by Tattoo Man - 2015-06-25 05:06:04


....................I had good money on you being the first to wade in !

I don't have much to add to the wisdom to be seen above...save to say that if your device has had regular tech attention then you should feel free to travel wherever you wish. If you have had a history of complications then check with your tecchie first...

Tattoo Man

Are you kidding?

by golden_snitch - 2015-06-25 05:06:38

Oh come on, we have more ICD implants per 1000 people per year in Germany than in the U.S.! We rank No.1 in ICD implants! We have much more pacemaker/ICD/CRT models on the market here than in the U.S., too. Medtronic, Boston, St. Jude, they all go for approval here first.

At my EP's deparment they just recently opened the world's most advanced catheter lab (they now have five there) for treating heart rhythm patients. They will soon be treating up to 6000 heart rhythm patients every year. In the past years they already implanted 1500-2000 devices per year, and did around 3000 catheter ablations.

Also, I had minimal invasive open heart surgery in Germany back in 2003 for a condition which was still treated with full sternotomy at Cleveland Clinic in 2009 and 2010 (know two patients who had it there). Kids here could get a special type of heart valves placed through a catheter procedure back in 2007 already when in the U.S. the first procedures where performed not before 2010/2011.

There is absolutely no need to worry about not getting proper care anywhere in Europe. If you were talking about traveling least developed or developing countries in Africa or countries in South-East Asia, I'd understand your worries, but Europe - you must be kidding or must belong to those Americans who still think that we have no running water and no toilets in "good old Europe".

Believe me, when it comes to medicine, Europe is very often not behind the U.S., but way ahead.

Thank you golden_snitch !

by IAN MC - 2015-06-25 07:06:03

It was interesting , when I had a cardiac ablation at one of the UK's leading heart hospitals, my cardiologist introduced me to two American Drs who had come to the UK to receive advanced cardiac training and to learn about recent developments in ablation techniques.

I agree with your comments totally, Inga , the insular beliefs of some of our friends across the pond never cease to amaze me.

I had read that Germany now has running water and toilets.
You will be pleased to know that we are working on it in the UK but electricity is still a few years away !

Auf Wiedersehen

Ian

Travel

by trish - 2015-06-25 12:06:38

Agree Ian that US if particularly good at treating gunshot victims or burying them This is a national embarrassment. Have found UK and most of Europe to be more technically advanced that
USA. Even China comes close. Many of our citizens think Europe is still in immediate pot WWII status. Trish

Hi Jawja...........

by Tattoo Man - 2015-06-26 03:06:17


................my sainted Mother in Law has lived in southern Spain for over 30 years and has received fantastic medical treatment....not Better than in the UK, but certainly a little different........

She can see her Doctor in the morning, along with a member of a team of translators...get an x-ray on site, within minutes,..and get a referral to see a Consultant the next day in Malaga...

Mum is 90 years old and has a Defib...she enjoys her wine and recently flew back to the UK for a Family party....also so that my F-in-Law could meet with his Supervisor at the Uni of Northampton where he is doing his SECOND Phd....Dad is a sprightly 92 year old !!!

On their behalf I am unashamedly boasting....

So...Jawja...come and visit The World......and see and experience the wonderful sights and people that await you....you'll be ok...just check with your Tecchie first.

Tattoo Man

Hi Jawja

by IAN MC - 2015-06-26 05:06:00

I still don't think you get it !

France,Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece are civilised countries with highly qualified cardiologists . You can add Belgium, Holland, Switzerland , Denmark, Sweden etc to the list !

A significant percentage of their citizens will have ICDs. Whatever you have read suggesting that patients with ICDs will get sub-optimal care in those countries is total RUBBISH !

I am going to France on Sunday for 3 weeks; I have a house there ; I have a French neighbour there who has an ICD. We compare scars after a few glasses of vin rouge.
The local hospital is fantastic !!!
The French believe that they have the best healthcare system in the world; I believe they are right.

I have a friend who is on vacation in Portugal at the moment ; he goes to the local hospital 3 times a week for renal dialysis; the kidney unit in the hospital is state-of-the-art ; need I go on ?

I have travelled in all of those countries that are listed and you need have no worries whatsoever.

If you sent a post asking if it is safe, with an ICD, to visit Illinois or California or Florida ; people would think you were mad ! Please understand our similar reaction when you question the safety of visiting European countries. No matter how you phrase the question it comes across as being naive because ICDs are common across Europe and the medical expertise to handle ICD problems is there.

But you are quite right about the bounty on the descendants of your very suspect 8th great grandfather; your passport will give you away as soon as you enter the UK and you may never be seen again, so take care ;o)

Ian

'Scuse Me !

by jawjabrewdawg - 2015-06-26 12:06:20

Don't hang me either. My 8th great grandfather was an American patriot who was hanged, gutted and then paraded around a town square by Lord Tryon in 1771. All of his sons had bounties on their heads as well, but thankfully none were ever caught and all fought the Brits in the War of Independence 5 years later. Maybe I should avoid England in case the Crown still has a bounty on their descendants LOL I suppose political correctness and oversensitivity are not phenomena confined only to the US !

My intent was not to disparage European medicine, technology or the competence of its cardiologists or imply inferiority to their US counterparts. Perhaps I mis-worded my post. I have read that France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece and most eastern European countries are not the best places to visit if you have an ICD. I merely wanted to hear personal experiences/anecdotes (bad or good) of other US citizens travelling Europe with ICDs which might corroborate or refute what I've read.

Peace Out !

So True!

by Janenotarzan - 2015-06-26 12:06:45

We Americans are indeed up-to-date on firearms as weapons, having almost completely left behind/abandoned stilettos, machetes, common knives, garrotes, spears, arrows, swords, lances, voo-doo, tomahawks, rocks, and subtle poisons as methods of mayhem. We are also becoming a force to be reckoned with in the utilization of bombs, bazookas, vehicles and pitt-bulls as murder-weapons. *sniff. sigh* We, as a people, have become so literal and efficient, at the expense of romanticism and subtle nuance; I fear we are becoming a savagely violent people. . .
Janenotarzan

: )

by Janenotarzan - 2015-06-26 12:06:53

Tongue-in-cheek--don't hang me!

Thanks :)

by jawjabrewdawg - 2015-06-27 11:06:32

Thanks for the response. Y'all have put my mind at ease. All kidding and patriotic pride aside.....if I'm fated to die overseas from v-tach despite my ICD's best effort, why not fibrillate on out whilst having an beer in an English pub or German beer hall... or sipping a glass of wine... on the sidewalk of a French cafe' ....or while people watching beside an Italian piazza... or while stuffing my face at a Spanish tapas bar....or maybe even watching the sun set whilst having an ouzo on a Greek Island overlooking the Mediterranean !

@ Ian: I'll disguise myself and come to England with false papers and never be discovered by Scotland Yard or MI-5 LOL ! BTW, my patriot Grampa's grampa came here from the Honington/Tysoe area of Warwickshire near the River Stour. 1530 is the furthest back in time we've been able to trace my paternal line. Alas they were coopers and fishermen so I likely have no royal or aristocratic blood in me LOL I'd especially like to visit to explore those and surrounding villages and perhaps discover more about my ancestors (oh yeah and do a pubcrawl too!) I harbor no ill feelings toward the Britishand have forgiven all. I do feel that Her Majesty's Government should do the same and that it rather owes me a few beers as reparation for hanging my ancestor though :)

I've had a word with the Queen

by IAN MC - 2015-06-28 03:06:48

and, believe it or not, she is full of remorse about the hanging of your ancestor !

As a small token of her guilt she has arranged for a free pint of the very best ale in the Peacock Inn in Tysoe, just mention her name and the drink will appear ( or could it be a trap to have you imprisoned ? )

Seriously though I know Honington and Tysoe although they are tiny places ,as I lived in Warwickshire for 5 years.The villages are so small that I doubt there will be any support whatsoever for ICD patients though.; in fact they stare at all strangers there .


It is a beautiful county with some great pubs and I have been to the Peacock Inn on many occasions. They are still talking about your criminal ancestors . When you do come to the UK make sure you visit Warwickshire, you won't regret it.

Best Wishes

Ian (now in sunny SW France ). I have driven 600 miles today so bed is seeming very attractive .

Let us know how you get on in the UK , our prisons are quite comfortable

Jawja and IAN MC....................

by Tattoo Man - 2015-06-29 03:06:48


..............this has been one of the most entertaining / reasoned / amusing threads of the year....I thank you.

The 'raison d'etre' of PM Club is , sometimes misunderstood,.....a brief look at the LH Sidebar is a clear demonstration of the Broad Church that is PMC....

This precious Forum has seen all life debated and dissected at some time or another...sometimes debated with passion and more than a touch of venom...

All-in-all, the Moderators are really tolerant towards the wide open nature of the Forum...and it is to them that we , collectively need to be thankful....

Moderation and Tolerance are some of the many qualities that PMC has to offer both the Newbies and the Old Lags.

Stick with PMC Jawja...open-mindedness is the very stuff that keeps this Forum constantly alive and relevant.

Tattoo Man

PS....IAN MC....do the French have a phrase for 'Raison d'etre'....????

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