Totally Baffled

Hi

by Casper - 2014-01-23 02:01:04

Hi RR,

I'm glad Golden Snitch and Ian jumped in, listen to them, they always give good advice.

I know through communication with Ian, he was a real avid runner.

BWT - Runners never believe they are obsessive.

... Remember.... The last thing a fish discovers is water!

similar problem

by pace-man - 2014-01-23 02:01:06

Hi Mark, I was pretty active as well , although I must admit I am not a runner, my heart rate dropped to 25bpm when I was asleep and in the thirties when I was awake, I didn't feel too bad , just a bit light headed at times,I had my own blood pressure machine at home and I thought that the machine was faulty , so I bought a new one , same result, it was not until I was in hospital that I found out that me rate dropped to 25bpm when I was asleep, I was advised to have a pacemaker put in , but I wanted to wait and see if it would come good first, that is when the cardiologist told me that I wont get any warning, so I had a pacemaker put in October last year, I am firing on all cylinders now. I hate funerals especially mine. I had in done in Brisbane.

So what?

by Duke999 - 2014-01-23 02:01:21

So what if your HR is in the 40's.
If you don't have any symptoms at all and you're feeling fine, then DON'T let them sell you into getting the PM.
Please don't rush into getting the PM. Get 2nd opinion.
Think hard about it. Having a PM is a BIG deal.
I've said it before on this forum and I say it again, the PM can be helpful for people who are real sick. If you have low heart rate with no symptoms at all, and you're doing fine and you're having a wonderful life, then live it. Please enjoy it. Because once you have a foreign object in your body, nightmare can begin.
I know some other members on this site would tell you otherwise, but that's my own personal advice to you only.
I wish you well.

Duke

Keep Running

by gleesue - 2014-01-23 03:01:15

Your situation is similar to mine. I was a very active runner, bike now because of arthritis. However, my doctor never told me to get a pacemaker, though he said I would probably need one as I got older. The important thing is your heart speeds up on it's own. I had plenty of reading in the 30's at night but no symptoms because of such a strong pump. Finally, after the last time I was cardioverted I started to go 6-10 seconds between heart beats. That was it, time for a PM. Even at 6-10 seconds between heart beats I was almost symptom free. The nurses couldn't believe it. They kept coming in and I kept saying I'm fine.

You know there athletes with a normal heart rate of 35-40s so your conditioning may have a lot to do with your rate.

I'm on the side of second opinion.

Jerry

Second opinion

by golden_snitch - 2014-01-23 03:01:27

Hi!

I agree with Duke, and would also suggest that you get a second opinion before making a decision. If you are an avid runner and are dealing with unsymptomatic bradycardia only (not caused by a heart block), your heart rates need to be judged differently than in someone who's not exercising that regularly. For very well trained people, heart rates at rest or when asleep of around 40bpm can be normal, especially if they are not symptomatic with these rates.

Also, someone who's used to exercising regularly and avidly, should never ever stop exercising all of a sudden. Your heart has adapted to your training, it has become larger. That's why it can pump the same amount of blood (or even more) as in a "normal" person with less beats per minute. When you stop running now all of a sudden, your enlarged heart muscle is at risk of weakening.

Best wishes

Inga

I agree completely

by IAN MC - 2014-01-23 05:01:28

that you should get a second opinion !

But why were you having an ECG in the first place ? was it just part of a routine medical , or were heart problems suspected ??

It is possible that your cardiologist is slightly concerned about your over-training because of the evidence that high intensity athletes , marathon runners, triathletes etc are statistically more likely to develop electrical problems of the heart , Your name and your bio do suggest that you are something of an obsessive runner ( I used to be one , it takes one to know one ! )

Cheers

Ian

Running and bradycardia

by Galadriel - 2014-01-23 06:01:18

Hi Mark

I am a runner who has a pacemaker. I had it fitted after long distance running finally caught up with me (no pun intended!). I had bradycaria but also developed arrhythmia with quite long pauses. It is normal for endurance athletes to have a low heart beat and if you are not having any other symptoms I don't understand why a pacemaker is needed. I ran for 10 years with a hr in the low 40s, had an echo to check all was ok and was told to carry on. It was only when | started getting symptoms and deterioration (which improved to a degree when I detrained), that it finally seemed advisable to get a pacemaker. I am not an expert but from my experience I would just monitor yourself for regularity of hr and symptoms and carry on. By the way, now I've had my pm I am back to running better than ever and enjoying it, so take heart (ha ha) and enjoy your running.

Thanks all ...

by Runner-Runner - 2014-01-23 06:01:39

To answer some questions,

Ian, the original ECG was from a check up after a hospital stay for an unrelated issue. Strange that they never picked up any irregularities while hooked up in hospital.

Galadriel, Golden Snitch, Duke and Paceman, I am most definately getting a second opinion. I have found a sports cardio in Melbourne. I figure if they deal with atheletes they may have a better insight to what my resulst do or do not show.

Thanks for all your responses and support. It reinforces how I feel within myself

Oh and Ian .. I didn't think I was THAT obsessed ;-)

Great Comments

by Runner-Runner - 2014-01-23 07:01:07

Thanks guys, some of your comments made me laugh .. obssesive ..ME?? ;-)

First off, don't get me wrong, if i need a PM, then give it to me I have no issue with that, if I NEED one. I like to make informed choices when it comes to my health, as I am sure we all do and have here.

GoHawks - That is the clinic I am going to, so that is a great recomendation, glad about that. Second opinion here I come.

Thing is, if i was symptomatic I wouldn't be 'arguing' i'd be saying when can you book me in. Oh well time will tell. Will keep you all informed

Thanks again.

Go to a sports cardiologist

by GoHawks - 2014-01-23 07:01:19

Hi Mark - your story sounds familiar. Also 50yo. I had similar symptoms, just a bit lower RHR (mid 20's) but long pauses at nighttime. Generally asymptomatic otherwise, but over the last year found I couldn't elevate my heart rate sufficiently during exercise (it would plateau about 110-120 bpm). As a serious long term runner, I ended up having to walk up hills. Without the exercise impact, I might have held off, although the Alfred heart centre were freaked by the night time pauses. Had my PM inserted just 6 weeks ago, and I feel like I'm on drugs (good ones!). I'm back to running sub-5 min k's, whereas I was struggling to do 6min k's just 2 months ago. I attended the cardio clinic at the Melbourne Olympic park sports medicine centre. I really recommend them.

Good luck. Tony

one more similar story

by BillMFl - 2014-01-23 07:01:23

Highly fit athlete all my life. Woke up during the night at age 60 and noticed my hr was very low. By the time I sat up and turned on the light and took my pulse it had jumped all the way up to 42 haha. Woke up my wife who was a cardiac ICU nurse at the time. She checked and said yup its pretty low go back to sleep and we will check you out tomorrow. Next day ekg showed possible infarct so was admitted and had every test known to man. Dx was slightly enlarged atheletic heart, 70% EF, mild regurge, no blockages, non obstructive ectasia of LAD artery and SSS. They even showed me the dye going thru the arteries during the procedure. After three days of being in ICU and setting off alarms during the night came the come to Jesus moment. Wife and Cardio she worked with ganged up on me. I was totally against having a PM but was told that I had a very real risk of not waking up some night due to very slow rate and pauses. My ego was telling me no. But all the data was saying yes. Still not happy having a PM but at 3 months shy of 72 I have no limitations. When I bounce into the docs office for my PM checks I am the most healthy looking person in the waiting room. I still hate having the dam thing but I can't argue with the results. Now have some additional funky electrical rhythms to deal with that a PM can't treat but they are just a nuisance. Meanwhile one of best friends who was 10 years younger chose to ignore his cardios advice and was buried a few months later. At his viewing he looked so good I thought he might sit up and yell surprise, but of course he did't. So man up, consider the risks, and make your own decision. Your risk may be small or not. And nobody can say for sure.

Fascinating Story Patrick !

by IAN MC - 2014-01-24 02:01:10

You say that you have "overcome complete heart block"
and you claim to have healed yourself . You throw out some fascinating advice :-

-- " use natural alternate means to heal yourself "

-- " with serious discipline and meditation I cured myself "

Could you amplify on this please ? What are the natural alternate means ? What do you mean by serious discipline ? How exactly did you will yourself better ?

Could you share your techniques for avoiding a PM implant with us in far more detail please .

Ian

Such a personal decision

by guo - 2014-01-24 02:01:31

I had my pacemaker implanted when I was 29 years old, under heavy duress from my cardiologist. I told him I wanted to leave and think about it first. I'd just been told I needed a pacemaker. He said he'd call the police and tell them I was operating a motorized vehicle in an unfit condition if I tried to leave.
I had been in perfect health prior to having spells where my heart would stop for 3 - 8 seconds intermittently. I never passed out but did get bothered by the discomfort of greying spells.

I had heart block... sinus node was working fine but ventricle never got the electrical signal so blood just pooled in the lower chamber.
I was never given a cause for my condition even after discussing with three cardiologists and never accepted deep down that I needed a pacemaker forever. They treat conditions and don't need to know the cause.
Driving home after the surgery I had the same spells as before, so had to have it done all over again, by a different cardiologist who was closer to where I was living at the time. The previous doc told me that in five percent of the cases the leads don't stay affixed to the heart wall.
Reading through some of the issues of current pacemaker patients on this site and I can relate so well to the pains and problems I've endured myself for the past 22 years with the contraption in me, none of which were described to me beforehand from any of the doctors.
To your issue with low 40s heart rate, or 30s in your sleep, I'd say you are just fine. That was the same for me.
One part of me would tell you to never get a pacemaker. Use natural, alternate means to heal yourself. I did myself after the pacemaker was implanted though had to endure a series of problems including nine years that my left arm was swollen and blue caused by a blood clot from weight lifting. The pacemaker caused the artery to press upon my collar bone while bench pressing.
I won't go into the details now of other pains I suffered through as well.
I'm telling you this as one athlete to another. If fear of dying is the reason for having it installed, you could just as easily regret it forever (since the leads become permanent).
I don't know if there are any members here who have overcome complete heart block but I have. I hid from the medical community since 1994 when I moved for job relocation and never went back again. Two years after implantation and I went AWOL. I had enough of big brother and didn't want to live my life out under their rule. I decided I would venture out on my own and let the battery just die.
It took about fifteen years and some fear along the way, but with serious discipline and meditation I cured myself. The battery died back in the summer of 2007 and I have had no spells since.
I still have had problems caused by the pacemaker itself though. The restriction in blood flow to the heart caused by the leads themselves has given me heart pains similar to a heart attack. I saw a cardiologist for the first time after twenty years to see if I could have it removed since I didn't need it anymore and it was causing me problems of its own. He said only in life-threatening cases and didn't recommend it. He acknowledged I didn't need the pacemaker.
I've never shared any of my story with anyone else who also has a pacemaker, or with someone considering having one implanted. I know some patients here may have few problems and are glad they had the surgery done. For myself, I'd have been better off enduring the intermittent heart stops for all the other troubles caused by the pacemaker itself. If I was going to die without the pacemaker, then so be it. At least it would've been natural.

The lesson provided by this contraption in me is a testament to the human will. The very last thing my cardiologist in 1992 said to me was that he never knew anyone to will himself better. I was his youngest pacemaker patient back then. I plan to go back to see him to introduce myself.

Patrick

Apologies

by IAN MC - 2014-01-24 04:01:12

Hi Runner-Runner-Runner-Runner

Apologies if I wrongly suggested that you were at all obsessed by running , I can't imagine what made me think that. Anyway, I can't hang around sending posts on here, I have to go off for a run right now !

Cheers

Ian

Incredible Patrick !

by Duke999 - 2014-01-24 05:01:58

I can relate to all things you said Patrick. I hated everything about the pacemaker in me. I'm not going into this subject because I know a lot of members here adore it and will ignore any sarcastic comments. I also understand that there's a time and place for the PM and I'm glad that it worked out good for them.
Anyway, I'm just speaking to you and runner-runner only. I like the idea of getting it out too and perhaps in the future if possible, I hope to get it out. But I think from what I know, once the PM is in, it's in and there's big risk of getting it and the leads out. I just want runner-runner to understand that it's not all happy ending to get a pacemaker and it could be the beginning of a real nightmare and to think really hard about it. Patrick, I applaud you.
And I wish you both well.

Duke

To Duke

by guo - 2016-08-09 22:41:39

Right on. To each his own with personal health issues. Since I last wrote two years ago, I have confirmed that the pacemaker is permanent and can't be removed without great risk. Scar tissue forms around the leads within the vessels and cutting on them would be dangerous. I paid a visit to a cardiologist who told me there was no reduction or constriction in blood flow from reduced  volume from the leads... that's total nonsense. Of course it's reduced. I have pains within my heart from time to time due to the wires and interference of blood flow as I age. At 53 years old, I have to keep myself at an extra good fitness level to compensate and I've always been a fit athlete. 

See my previous comment from two years ago... ironically it's the pacemaker itself that will ultimately be the death of me. I forge on, taking care of myself as best I can.  It's not an attitude thing whatsoever. I have endured real pains from the contraption (that I overcame and no longer need) and my story should be taken to heart for those who are disciplined and don't give in to medical wisdom over ones own fearless wisdom. 

Patrick

To Ian

by guo - 2016-08-09 22:45:32

Sorry about the two year delay. Once I wrote my post I hadn't returned to this site since. Let me set aside some more time and I will address your questions. 

Patrick