Please tell me it's not true !

I have just returned from my regular Sunday morning run in the woods . The sun was shining , the skies are blue , trees and flowers are in bud, the pacemaker is working well and I wasn't bitten by any dogs .

Life doesn't get much better than this ,especially when I settle down with a pot of coffee afterwards and read the Sunday newspaper.

and then what do I read :-

ONE IN FOUR WOMEN IN AMERICA ARE PRESCRIBED ANTIDEPRESSANTS

Apparently being female in America is almost viewed as a medical condition

Please tell me this is not true , tell me that the journalist has it wrong . I know that in America , you are different to us Brits,

You talk differently , you all own guns , you all believe in God ( who presumably doesn't own a gun ) but the article suggests that the major difference between our two nations is the number of healthy people in USA who believe they have a medical issue.

But even so; I in 4 on antidepressants cannot be true ; is it ?

Ian

17 Comments

Angry Sparrow Fantastic Comment

by Artist - 2015-03-22 01:03:05

Viva La Differences! The diversity in thoughts, cultures, personalities, manner of dress enrich our lives and broaden our horizons. Wouldn't life be boring if we were all little clones of each other. The people that are insecure in their own identities are often the first to demean someone else in an attempt to validate their own worth.

Theknotguy

by IAN MC - 2015-03-22 03:03:11

Nobody has said that 25 % of American women " need medical help"

They are prescribed antidepressants which is totally unrelated to whether they need them or not.

Data on prescription drug usage is easily available and accurate ; the pharmaceutical industry thrives on it !

Ian

I just want to see

by Theknotguy - 2015-03-22 03:03:17

I just want to see from where the person got his statistics to quote that 25% of the women in the US need the medical help? Does anyone know?

I'm still waiting for the follow-up story on the guy's mom with a PM who died going through airport security. Have looked a couple of times but nothing mentioned.

We used to get the guys that would come onto the Santa Maria and tell us our rigging was wrong. Probably right, because we didn't have a ship from 1492 with which to compare ours. I'd ask for documentation but, of course, they didn't have any.

So I'm asking, where's the documentation???

Hyde Park nSoap Box....

by donr - 2015-03-22 10:03:20

...here I come.

Ian, I would not doubt it one bit. It is a stupid, over-used approach to treatment for anxiety/depression. It is just so simple for a medic to take one of two attitudes toward this issue:

1) She's just another hysterical woman. She will just have to get over it by herself.

2) She's just another hysterical woman - it will save me time if I just give her an Rx for a pill & wave goodbye to her so I can treat a person who is REALLY sick & worthy of my attention.

Just look at the subset of women (& men) in here who suffer post-PM anxiety/depression/inability to get their heads around their situation. It is REAL. It needs treatment. My observation is that women suffer that after effect more than men - or at least they will talk about it more.

I keep repeating Napoleon's Maxim the "In battle the mental is to the physical as three is to one." If recovering from a cardio procedure is not battle, I do not know what it is!

The treatment can take one of two forms - talk, explanation, explanation, knowledge, understanding what is physically & mentally happening to the patient - what I call "Treating the head as well as treating the heart." (Ref Napoleon, above) Look at how many people we help through these trials just by doing all those things for them.

The second form is a pill. Face it, there is a spectrum of symptoms & their psychological effect on people. Some just need that chemical help. It does NOT have to be large calibre anti-depressants - perhaps something a mild as a benzodiazipine titrated appropriately for temporary relief along w/ talk can do the job. But talk takes time & Dr's are sometimes loathe to give it.

Surely you've read my vignette about my ER Doc Daughter who had a 3 month PM host come into her ER freaked out of his gourd w/ anxiety. She did not have an hour to talk to him, so she called me to come in & see if I could help him out. She ruled out functionality issues as best she could (did not live in an area where she could get any cardio support - closest was over 20 miles away; not even get a PM Tech to come to her hosp) I spent an hour w/ the man & his wife Just chatting at first to figure out what was going on. I watched the monitor on the wall behind his back - he was running a HR of over 100 BPM & being paced at darned near 100%. Normal was about 560 BPM resting & 35% paced. Finally we got to the point where I could ask the salient question - "What do you think is bothering you?" Now here was a man who had a perfectly functioning PM, stressed out of his gourd. He blurted out w/o hesitation "I'm afraid my PM will quit & I'll die!" His reason for the PM was "simple" Brady. No way would he die if the PM DID quit. So the three of us talked about reliability, etc. & as the discussion went on, I saw his HR drop to the 70's & his pacing % drop to somewhere close to the 35% he reported.

No One had ever had any discussion about such issues. At this point, I challenge the entire medical community to prove my thesis is wrong. I don't think they can do it.

Choosing which treatment to follow is a judgement call, based on going further than just sitting there, nodding & grunting & anticipating the next round of golf as the patient explains - or tries to explain - how they feel.

Let's address the issue then, of Female cardios - who supposedly should feel empathy & understanding of the differences between men & women. I have a friend - same age as you & I. he got a CABG for the posterior descending coronary artery - the "widow -maker." Spent several hours on the heart -lung machine. Came out of the procedure quite well, physically, but suffered the symptoms later of being what is called here a "Pump Head." That is a syndrome where you suffer memory loss of various degrees. Did his Cardio - a woman - warn him in advance this might happen? NO! Did she explore covertly post-op if that was happening to him? NO! Did she treat his head along w/ his heart? H... NO!

Look at the number of female Cardios that our female members are unhappy with. A biased sample of humanity, I'll grant you, because the population is not randomly chosen (Oh, Frank, where are you when I need you to join a statistics discussion?)

Yes, we Yanks in general believe in Guns & God. I keep telling you that we learned it either FROM you, (The Anglican Church was the predominant church in the pre-revolutionary colonies) our antecedents, or BECAUSE of you (We were forbidden to manufacture many components of weapons & we were under autocratic control of a non-resident Gummint that denied us many of the civil & legal rights that our relatives in the home country enjoyed.)

But we are now a separate culture, an amalgamation of all colors, nationalities, genes & origin cultures. We are not the same as you. The practice of medicine is no different from the influences of all that background. I go to a Cardio practice whose principal is an Ethnic Russian Jew whose parents emigrated to Israel, where he went to Meed School, then he & his family emigrated to the US. He has a staff of a US Born Indian; a Lebanese Christian, who went to med school in Lebanon; A German woman as a Physician's assistant; A Cuban woman for his head nurse. Our PCP is an emigre from the Dominican republic, who went to med School there.

All that shows in the nature of our systems of care.

I'm not surprised at your newspaper statistic. It all comes from our post WW-II concept that we can fix anything with technology. I can remember the DuPont Chemical Industries motto from the beginning of WW-II. "Better things for better living - through chemistry."

Don



IAN MC

by Janenotarzan - 2015-03-22 10:03:29

It appears you really stirred the melting pot : )
Thanks, Janenotarzan

I agree Artist

by Grateful Heart - 2015-03-22 11:03:07

There are some narrow minded, hateful people in the World.

Unfortunately it has been that way since the beginning of time.

Not taking my BP right now either. lol

Grateful Heart

Groan!

by Artist - 2015-03-22 11:03:15

I probably should bite my tongue, but I am hooked by the statement that all Americans have guns and believe in God. I now live in one of the most bible toting, gun carrying right wing states in the US. Surprisingly enough, or really not surprising at all, it has the fourth most corrupt government in the US and was the last state to eliminate their laws against interracial marriage and that was in 2002! I celebrate the cultural and religious diversity in the US, and my cardiologist and GP are both Hindus and are both wonderful doctors. These doctors have been subjected to harassment by the "good" people who tout their religious beliefs as the one true way and everyone else is somehow a lesser human being and unworthy. The "good" people of this state are often mentioned in police reports that predominantly list domestic abuse, rape, child abuse etc.-- I will stop the list there. Somehow many Americans have forgotten how to walk softly on this earth and act with kindness. My friends have told me to keep my mouth shut, that trying to reason with the local people in the small town I live near would be pointless. I also don't want to offend any of the PM Club members and realize that any real ranting along this line is not consistent with the focus and purpose of the club. If I took my BP now it would probably be high!

Still want to see the statistics

by Theknotguy - 2015-03-22 11:03:21

Still want to see the statistical report from which the person got their information. Sounds like yellow journalism to me. Standard fear mongering.

Unfortunately

by Grateful Heart - 2015-03-22 11:03:40

It is a problem across the globe.

It sounds like that article is not complete. For example:

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/may/28/rise-in-antidepressant-prescriptions-rates-in-england-get-the-data

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10957417/Staggering-rise-in-prescribing-of-antidepressants.html

I am not surprised. There is so much evil and sadness in the World that tensions and anxiety are extremely high....not only for medical issues.

I agree Ian, sunshine, blue skies, trees and flowers, my CRT-D working well and a good, happy and healthy family are enough endorphins for me. But some are not so fortunate.

BTW: I have to say, after 9/11 happened, I know a few atheists who prayed right along with us.

Grateful Heart

Theknotguy

by IAN MC - 2015-03-23 04:03:37

Are you sure that you have a PM ? Did you demand to see the evidence proving that they fitted one ; I would insist on seeing a video of the PM installation, complete with full proof that you were the patient.

You shouldn't believe everything you're told !

Seriously though, the piece I referred to was certainly not sensationalist journalism . It was a well-researched thought-provoking piece in The Sunday Times , one of our more reputable newspapers and the 1 in 4 quote was hidden in the text.

The basic theme was " unnecessary medication" and it used ,as examples, medical conditions which have largely been created by the pharmaceutical industry , such as Attention Deficit Disorder with resultant enormous sales of Ritalin.

Now the industry has persuaded doctors and mums that acid reflux in infants needs medical treatment when we all know that babies who have wind and regurgitate from time to time is a perfectly normal phenomenon.

It used depression as an example of a condition which is massively over-treated, particularly in the States ( as is high blood pressure in my view ! )

Ian

Lost For Words

by Artist - 2015-03-23 04:03:53

I just can't find the words that adequately express the impact that Janenotarzan's comments had when I read her account of the challenges she faced in raising her son. I am in awe. Good parenting takes a lot of time, patience and love and those qualities shine through in her story. What a better world we would have if more parents could and would make that kind of commitment to their children!
Thanks for sharing that with us.

Googled it. . .

by Janenotarzan - 2015-03-23 07:03:32

And found several articles on the topic. A recent one that mentions "1 in 4 American women," has this link:
www.cnn.com/2015/03/06/living/feat-moods-antidepressants-new-book.
My laptop is down, so I have only my smartphone & cannot cut&paste. Hope I got the link typed correctly.
~Jane

I'm A Statistic

by Janenotarzan - 2015-03-23 09:03:13

When someone posted recently requesting options for successfully treating anxiety, I quickly chimed in about antidepressants. After posting, I saw that Theknotguy had just posted a thoughtful, comprehensive list of tried-and-true remedies to anxiety that don't require a Rx. I was chagrined.

Antidepressants were the absolute last line-of-defense in my decades- long battle with anxiety, yet I carelessly tossed it out at a "quick fix." Why? Because I wrongly assumed that was what this member wanted. How many Drs make the wrong assumptions, I wonder?

I have believed for years that antibiotics, antidepressants, and tranquilizers are highly overprescribed or inappropriately prescribed in modern America, and I've suspected other modern societies had similar issues; Recent "studies and statistics" reinforce my beliefs.

Before resorting to Rx prescriptions for antidepressants, I tried to keep my anxiety at bay with nearly every remedy I have seen listed by others on this site-and then some. Ultimately, I concluded that my wonderful mind, like my heart, was somewhat skewed & truly needed chemical assistance to function correctly and consistently. I continue with other means of management for my anxiety, but I'll not go off my antidepressants either. I'm saddened that the stigma of becoming a statistic, propigated by learning of other adults' hasty choices, kept me from taking the pill-a-day needed to improve my quality of life and kept me from relief of my oftentimes near-debilitating symptions.

I have an amazing son who has some neurological issues. He suffered from severe Childhood Apraxia of Speech and sensory-integration issues that put him on the autism spectrum. I was his greatest champion, followed by his siblings, father, extended relatives, friends, MDs, DOs, Therapists, Aides, Teachers, and a cutting-edge school system in Colorado.

Untold manhours went into helping this child, my son, become the very best person he could possibly be. He graduated HS with honors and went on to a career as an independent, socially "normal" adult. He always had a strong will to succeed and a grateful heart; these made his childhood struggles productive for him and his achievements gratifying to himself and others. He looks back fondly on a busy, happy childhood with more accomplishments than setbacks, and he has clearly defined memories of it all, because those times were drug/chemical free, and unmuddied in his memories. When this son was 3 yrs old, his pediatrician told me, "He will go just as far and just as high as his peers. . .BUT. . .he has to go the long way 'round and up the mountain. . .AND. . .he will be the better person because of it; and so will you.

Was I ever tempted to make things easier for myself, this child, his teachers or siblings by drugging him? Of course I was, but only momentarily, and only after a particularly difficult day. Or two. In the end, I know the choices his father and I made to withold meds were the right ones. For him. About anyone else, I cannot/will not presume to judge.

Adults do awful things to other adults and to themselves. I don't have the resources to consume myself with their goings-on. It is what people do to the children entrusted to their care and to the children of others that have the power to upset me. This includes teaching or fostering intolerance or disdain in our wee ones. Prejudice is not an inborn trait, but a learned behavior. It has no place in my extended "united nations poster" family.

I was a far from perfect Mommy, but I raised some darn good kids. Two teachers, one elem. Ed & one Secondary Ed, both with MAs. Two Social workers, one MA with elderly, one early chilhood with a BA, Two w/ military careers and one on scholarship @ university. They, like I do, walk for pleasure, engage in sports like their father, cook healthy foods from scratch, grow gardens, and are raising another generation of slim, active, health-conscious, educated, patriotic, tolerant Americans. So There!
~Janenotarzan










.

Good comment, Jane...

by donr - 2015-03-23 11:03:28

...I have experienced only SOME of the issues you faced.

My 750 lb gorilla that I carried around on my shoulders was PTSD, brought home from Viet Nam in 1968. Still have it & it jumps up in ambush now & then & bites me.

I had it about 5 yrs before it was characterized & given a name. And, it was another 5 yrs before it was recognized in me.

In the meantime, every MD I saw for some reason wanted to prescribe anti-depressants for me.

Finally a shrink I was seeing suggested that I try Valium & take just enough to take the "Edge" off the way I felt when things were particularly bad. I titrated it to the point that I found 1.25 mg (quarter of a 5 mg pill) of the stuff lasted about 3 hrs & allowed me to regain self control of my situation.

I talked about it w/ the last shrink I saw & the first session we had, she asked if I would like a anti-depressant. I told her emphatically "NO!" In our discussion, she explained that it was standard procedure to offer it. I felt strongly about it because it took so long for it to make a difference (If it would) & so long for it to be totally detoxified that you never knew when you could safely stop it. That was what I liked about the Valium - fast acting & fast to be de-toxed.

My conclusion - when it comes to anxiety/depression, you have be master of your own ship. There are no shortcuts & a pill will not solve the problem, which is internal. They can assist you, but you must internally do the job.

As I said in my rather long comment, Someone else who understands the probable causes must talk to you to enlighten you so you can gain control. Perhaps a pill can help, but if it takes too long to take effect & too long to wear off, it is counter productive.

Donr

Prescription Data

by IAN MC - 2015-03-24 02:03:58

Don While I agree with you re the skewing of statistics and the extrapolation of small samples up to total populations, these problems would not be relevant to a simple piece of data such as the percentage of American women taking anti-depressants. Buying and selling prescription breakdown data is BIG business :-

- Accurate data is so valuable to many organisations as well as the pharmaceutical industry.This data is collected and sold by governments, pharmacy outlets , prescribing doctors, hospitals and health insurance companies.

As you know, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry and we had a massive department of people who spent their lives analysing prescription data . It is big business and those guys really do understand statistics. If I wanted to know the percentage of one-legged Mexican lepers who take Viagra , they would find out for me !

I imagine that a substantial part of the revenue of Medicare and other health insurance companies in the US comes from selling patient drug-prescription data

- It is not the case of doing a few surveys , jotting down a few figures on the back of an envelope and then multiplying it up to the whole population.

- Just one of the Market Research companies, IMS , states on their website that they receive comprehensive data from 85,000 doctors and from the medical records of over 33 million patients.

As more and more patient drug data is electronically stored , then the market research data-base will become colossal, verging on universal,. As you know , everything is up for sale , and data on patients 'prescriptions definitely is !

That apart, I just sent the initial post to record my concern that a helluva lot of US women ( and US men ) pop pills if they aren't feeling as happy as they think they should be. The US is leading the way but the rest of the world is catching up fast. The absolute ,nit-picking, accuracy of the data is not that relevant .

Cheers

Ian

THe Knot Guy's PM...

by donr - 2015-03-24 12:03:22

...is an example of an individual, observable condition being compared to a pile of statistics.

As far as the PM is concerned, you can see it, feel it & run tests on the heart that are independent of the PM to realize it is there.

The old saw says that there are '...liars, damned liars & statistics..." (fishermen fit in there someplace).

Statistics are dangerous & cannot be applied to an individual, except as an indicator of what to look for as a final diagnosis.

Statistics can be so badly skewed for so many reasons that they become meaningless. Especially true for the selection of the sample out of the universe of all eligible members. It must be a random sample. I suspect that this sample was FAR from random. As I read the discussion, the universe was ALL AMERICAN WOMEN. So how did the women who did not see MD's to get an Rx get sampled? If the study matched ALL WOMEN patients against the % who walked out of the office w/ an Rx, you just changed the universe to "All women who see Dr's." that's a far cry from "All American Women."

Don

Cheers from the peanut gallery!

by Janenotarzan - 2015-03-27 03:03:23

WOW! Heartfelt thanks to Ian Mc, DonR, The Knot Guy, and Angry Sparrow for helping me exercise my mind.
Also, thank you Artist for your kind words.

I tried to comment repeatedly on this topic for hours after it appeared, but this site wouldn't recognize the spam filter on my phone. Grrr.

By the time I could post, there were multiple comments already, relating to various aspects of the original post, and my train of thought had ventured along the lines of "quick-fix, easy-solution pills for stress/mood-relief'' VS "prescription treatment for documented disorders, and for chemical or neurological deficits. " Hense the vignette about my son & the peek into my own weirdness.

There was a sincere comment, deleted now, from a retired educator. I agree with the jist of that post completely, and regret that I was unable to applaud and second it's content.

~Janenotarzan

You know you're wired when...

You forecast electrical storms better than the weather network.

Member Quotes

But I think it will make me feel a lot better. My stamina to walk is already better, even right after surgery. They had me walk all around the floor before they would release me. I did so without being exhausted and winded the way I had been.