Crystal again

Hi!

So, I'm going to make this public now because I'm really angry. This journalist named Crystal has contacted me again, and apparently she is under the impression that because this is an online forum open to the public, anything we write here openly plus the name we put under it, she can take and use for the article she writes. Quote Crystal:

"As you ask, I won't say anything about you in my story that you haven't said in a post open to the public on this site. You did put your name on that post."

She is not writing about pacemaker patients in general, she is doing an article on people who participate in the "Health eHeart" study, and I did post something here about my participation in this study. I have told Crystal that I do not wish her to use my words and especially not my name in her article. For whatever I say or write I have the copyright, and in a forum like this it can only be that by agreeing to the terms of use I pass that copyright on to Blake, the owner of the site.

If there's anyone among you who knows a bit more about copyright laws, please let me know if I am right or wrong. I did a search on copyright and came to the conclusion above.

Thanks!
Inga

20 Comments

What can we be concerned about?

by donr - 2014-01-31 01:01:34

Ian, it definitely cannot be making a fool of one's self in public. We've already done that when we write a comment here.

If you go to Google, you can find a reference that will take the researcher to any one of our many posts in the PMC.

To me, it's the thought of something written here that may be copied & removed from its original environment & lose its original context - causing confusion & misunderstanding because it is separated from its related material.

To reason from the absurd, take either of the comments in the "Snow" thread near the bottom, written By Tat Man or Bossy Strong. Ripped from that thread & printed else where they would make zero sense.

To get correct context for many of our comments, they need to be read in conjunction w/ the entire thread.

That is sometimes true for some of the erudite ruminations by Inga.

Don

Surprised !!

by donb - 2014-01-31 02:01:05

I just want to comment as I found doing a Google search about a Drug I was given for a test. Lo & behold I found what I had posted on our site as a negative in a Google article. So, it's very important not to have our personal name on record here as it's scarry. I don't appreciate more "Crystal" information searches.
DonB

Reporters that won't go away

by Tracey_E - 2014-01-31 04:01:13

Inga, I can ask my husband (attorney) but I think things posted online in a public forum are like a conversation in public and can be quoted so she's being obnoxious but not illegal. I don't understand her persistence and lack of courtesy. The company she works for is legit, they supply CME for doctors, but her approach needs work.

http://www.medpagetoday.com/About/Staff/

Not so sure

by golden_snitch - 2014-01-31 05:01:03

Tracey,

I believe this is not so easy. Anything written and spoken is under the copyright of the person who says/writes it, and this is especially true for something written down by a person. I did a search on this, but I also had a seminar dealing with copyright just a few months back (did an advanced training for public relations), so I'm pretty sure that Crystal cannot just take something from this forum and use it in an article of hers.

There's an interesting discussion about this at:
http://www.worldlawdirect.com/forum/copyright-trademark-patent/54180-user-generated-forum-posts-copyright-protected.html

But, yes, please ask your husband.

Thanks!

Inga

Ethics?

by KAG - 2014-01-31 06:01:57

There's also a thing called ethical behavior which should not need a specific law written to govern behavior.

Just my opinion.
Kathy

quotes

by Tracey_E - 2014-01-31 07:01:39

He left for the office before I could ask but the way I understand it, you can't take it for your own but as long as you cite your source, you can use whatever you want. News media does that all day long.

terms of use

by Tracey_E - 2014-01-31 08:01:40

Blake's rules would have been set out in the terms of use we agreed to when we joined.

Don and Inga, I sent both of you the attorney reply. Can you say shades of gray?

Copyright Fair Use

by donr - 2014-01-31 08:01:53

Inga, Tracey: Very interesting that this came up now! Just last night I read a news article about something called "Fair use." As we discuss this, the US House of Representatives is trying to come up w/ an updated copyright law - essentially called "Intellectual Property." Now I do know that there are international agreements on Copyright protection in addition to national laws. For years, Taiwan did not comply w/ the laws & printed & sold all sorts of books at less than what was considered fair value & did not pay the authors royalties. This issue is driving the DVD/CD community nuts right now.

Th written community is likewise struggling w/ the ramifications of exactly what Crystal is doing.

I just Googled on "Fair Use hearing US House" & came up w/ a ton of discussions on exactly this issue. It is extremely contentious subject.

I suggest you grab any book published in the US (I pick the US because I don't have any published anywhere else) & flip to the page in the front of the book w/ the copyright info on it. The one I just picked up at random is an academic /intellectual/history type & the copyright restrictions read:

"All rights reserved, including the right to reproduce this book or portions thereof in any form whatsoever. For information..." That NOT an uncommon restriction on copy usage. I have read the restrictions that deny all usage except w/ permission of the author.

There is in the US what is called (I believe) the "Implied Copright" that does not require the owner to register his/her work w/ the copyright office. A prime example is a photograph - you take it, you own the Copyright. BUT: There is a requirement that you visibly mark the photo w/ the "Circle C" symbol & label it w/ the owner's name. I believe the same situation exists for written work.

Unfortunately, we do not know what Blake's Copyright rules are. I just searched the site & found no mention of them. What is going to fog the issue is the international content - Blake is Canadian; his Web Host is in Canada, I'm in the US, Inga is in Germany, Alma Annie is in Oz. What a stew!

Inga - I'm with you on this issue. But the law may well fall on the side of Crystal. There is a common line in a series of US TV shows that says "I'm not in the right or wrong business, I'm in the legal/illegal business & the two are not always the same." The line is spoken by a cop, talking w/ someone who has been done wrong & complains about something not being right.

Keep fighting it.

Don

A difficult issue

by golden_snitch - 2014-01-31 08:01:57

Hi Don!

In the EU you definitely do not need to register your every word for copyright. What you say and write falls under your copyright. This is intellectual property.

When I sign the user agreement on a website, I do not give up my copyright rights to the whole public, but only to the person who owns the site. So, that'd be Blake, and definitely not just any member like Crystal.

Also, I have explicitely stated several times in my messages to Crystal that I do NOT give her permission to use my words and name in her article. She might be allowed to quote peoples' written/spoken words, but only as long as these people do not object.

What she can do is to write that she has read discussions in online forums about the Health eHeart study, and that people seem to think this and that about it. That's ok. But she she's not allowed to use my words and my name.

Best wishes

Inga

Another option

by Theknotguy - 2014-01-31 09:01:28

In the US, I have inherent Copyright rights when I publish something. I am the first author and have the Copyright rights. When in doubt, all I have to do is put the "(C) Copyright 2014, all rights reserved", and the text is copyrighted.

I'm not sure if this forum has the copyright notice or not. Quite a few laws are reciprocal between the US and Canada so copyright laws may be transferable between the two countries. So even though the website is based in Canada and we are writing our comments in the USA, copyright laws may apply across the border.

If this "Christy" is lifting something from this forum and publishing it in the US, those copyright laws may be in effect and she is guilty of plagiarism.

All we have to do is to drop a short note to Health eHearts (http://www.health-eheartstudy.org/) and demand we don't want our comments published. A phone call from a nasty lawyer wouldn't hurt either. Health eHearts is based in California, USA so is bound by the US copyright laws.

Since they supposedly are doing this research, it won't be good publicity for them to have a plagiarism suit right off the bat.

Maybe a little email writing campaign to Health eHearts? Hmmm?

Theknotguy

Regardless

by Theknotguy - 2014-01-31 10:01:19

As a contributing author to a couple of publications, copyright and use thereof is one of those really shady gray areas especially when the problems go, as in our case, global. Not to mention Internet complications and all that. Quotes from this site have been limited to my wife. Other discussions have been, "They were saying on the forum...." Then I have a general discussion about what people have said with no direct quotes. As an author, I respect the rights of people on this forum. If I were to write something, I'd contact the person first to see if they would be agreeable to me quoting them.

Another tack would be to contact Crystal's editors. Maybe she doesn't see a problem, but they may. We had a similar discussion with one of my publications and the editor spelled out their copyright rules. The editor tried to make it fair for both his publication and the contributing authors. The publication retains copyright for that issue. I retain copyright for my use. So I'm free to go ahead and re-publish articles that were originated by me. Because of that the publication gets free double advertising because I show their publication to prove I'm a contributing author.

My thinking was this is a public forum so what I say is public. However when someone "steals" your comments and starts to make money from them it becomes an issue for contention. Obviously I don't like it. So I'll reiterate. Finding the publications in which Crystal publishes and contacting the editors may stop her from stealing our comments. A lot of publications are hanging on by the skin of their teeth and the threat of a lawsuit will make them reconsider very quickly. Not to mention they want people to view their publications in a favorable light.

I had another website lift pictures directly from my website and use them. Was never contacted and didn't know it until I started seeing high web traffic. Pulled the other website's code and found out they were pulling the pictures directly from my site. It's hard to explain the feeling of violation when someone does that.

If he - and I say "he" because I found the registered owner of the site- would have contacted me I would have been very helpful and would have given him even better pictures. As it was, I changed my site and broke his website. I wasn't sorry about breaking his website as I felt he was stealing from mine. As per previous discussions here, there was a lot of discussion about this person lifting pictures from my site but no one had any clear cut answers as to it being right or wrong. However I always feel it's best to play nice in the sandbox. Don't do things you wouldn't like being done to you.

Regardless of what the international laws say, the Internet is like the USA's wild west. You carry a gun strapped to your hip hoping you won't have to use it, but are always ready to pull it out if needed.

I agree with Inga - she's not allowed to use either my words or my name without prior consent.

Theknotguy

legal/illegal

by manaman - 2014-01-31 10:01:36

What a witches brew! I certainly hope this situation does not bring such a GREAT forum to non-existence!
There is SO much help and support people on this site provide that is FREE and has brought hundreds of people to a new outlook on life that may not have happened other wise!
We don't know each other until we post and then we ALL b ecome one big caring family that hand out crutches and bandages that other wise would be non-existant!
I know for a fact that Electric Frank, DonR, Inga,,Pacerrep, pookie and ,lot more have gotten me over the "hump" on many instances.
I sincerely hope the work of one person does not close this site down or cause it's source of INVALUABLE information to develop "LOCK JAW"
Thanks for ALL past help I have received myself and I hope my little input in past posts have helped someone also.
Cecil

not plagiarism

by Tracey_E - 2014-01-31 10:01:50

Theknotguy, she only wants to quote some of us who participated in the study. No plagiarism, actually what set me and Inga off was being asked to include our last names when she quoted us. She is not affiliated with the study but works for a (apparently legit) company that does articles for drs and CME programs. She is doing an article on internet based studies. I don't have a problem with any of that, I just don't want my name in her article and I don't want to be directly quoted.

Maybe there's a distinction

by KAG - 2014-01-31 11:01:24

First let me say I agree with Inga that she owns her words and I'm not a lawyer, just an engineer.

As I was reading these posts it struck me that being able to use people's comments made on "a public site" made it OK without the author's permission. I liken it to being on the street making a comment which could be over heard by anybody. Probably a valid legal point.

However is this truly a "public site". I don't think so as we had to all sign up for it and agree to terms and conditions. I think this makes it a "members only site". As such, perhaps the ownership of posts is clearer and the requirement that the owner must approve any use of those words in another publication.

Maybe this distinction makes a difference?

Kathy

speech

by Tracey_E - 2014-01-31 11:01:41

There are rules and they vary from country to country but when it comes down to it, anything we say on the internet is public so while it may not be legal or ethical, people can take your words. Copy/paste, anyone can do it from any computer so don't type something you don't want the world to see.

In general, I don't care if someone quotes something I say here but my words are meant FOR PATIENTS. I don't post to see my words in print or because I like to type, I do it because I think I have something to offer people who are new to this path, someone afraid or who can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Have a friend with a new pm who is scared? Quote me all day long if it will help. I don't plan to stop, but I will be pretty darned mad if my words are used for commercial gain, which is what a professional article is.

Thanks everyone!

by golden_snitch - 2014-01-31 11:01:56

It's good to see that I'm not alone with my opinion on this matter. Hope we all together have now scared Crystal away from this place ;-)

Inga

Come on Crystal, where are you ?

by IAN MC - 2014-01-31 12:01:14


Assuming that Crystal is still reading our posts it would be nice if she made a comment and defended her corner.

For what it's worth, I cannot for the life of me understand why people are getting so uptight about this . As Tracey says anyone can copy and paste anything they see on the internet.

If anybody anywhere can make commercial gain from the rubbish that I write, then best of luck to them !

Chill out everybody, it's not important ; what exactly is the worst scenario that people are worried about ?

Cheers

Ian

It's not plagiarism...

by donr - 2014-02-01 01:02:33

...if you cite the author & do not claim the work as your own or imply that it is your own.

Citing it w/o permission falls under the law as infringement of some type. Or, I think the term is unfair use.

Don

Hi

by jeanlancour - 2014-02-01 01:02:35

Perhaps when it is brought to the attention of the study she is writting about, that in the future far fewer people will be willing to take part in their programs they would have something to say to Crystal. By using your names she is invading your privacy.

It would be nice

by Moner - 2014-02-01 09:02:26

Inga,

It would be nice thought, but I doubt Crystal will be scared away.

It sounds to me she's only in it for her own self glorification and nothing more, while getting credit skimming off on-line comments from others here.

Come Crystal where are you now?

Moner
>^..^<

You know you're wired when...

You take technology to heart.

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A pacemaker completely solved my problem. In fact, it was implanted just 7 weeks ago and I ran a race today, placed first in my age group.