Hawthorn Berry Extract and other traditional Meds

Hawthorn

by piglet22 - 2024-06-10 11:41:26

WebMD simply says that there is no scientific evidence to support the claims made for hawthorn extract and beneficial heart effects.

Beta blockers are effective for protecting the heart though I would agree that the side effects like exhaustion are the price paid.

I occasionally forget to take them and the effect is immediate. Blood pressure up and erratic heart rate 

Appreciate your POV

by Andiek11 - 2024-06-10 12:10:25

Yep WebMD is not supportive, but I've been focusing more on research studies published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals (the drole, scientific type... *haha*).  If you're ever interested if what I've been learning, I'm happy to share.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.  

reliable source

by new to pace.... - 2024-06-10 12:17:28

I use my accupunturist as i trust her judgement on various supplements.  If you PM me will give you her name.  she does ship.

new to pace

Hawthorn

by doublehorn48 - 2024-06-10 12:23:15

The negative to using hawthorn berries seems to be that they could interact with medications that you maybe taking. You know you can buy a hawthorn plant and grow your own berries. 

WebMD is just giving you anti-alternative med mantra

by MiracleBaby78 - 2024-06-10 12:27:18

There are health food stores in the US who could help guide you.  Where do you live?  If in the Houston area I can recommend one that sells dried hawthorn berries and other nutritional supplements.  Although, I tried Hawthorn Berries and had to give them away because they lowered my heart rate to the extent that I felt dizzy.  But if they work for you and you're seeing results without the pharmaceutical meds, then by all means do what is best for your body.  

And more thanks...

by Andiek11 - 2024-06-10 13:06:07

New to Pace and Miracle Baby, thanks for your offers to link me with your reliable suppliers.  I'll hold this info for the moment pending some final choices on my part.  :)  

Doublehorn, good news for me is the only other med I'm on is a minimal dose of Losartan which used to be taken along side my beta blocker. You're right that be it herbal / botanical or pharmaceutical one must always be alert to possible interactions.  :)

"Traditional" medicines

by IAN MC - 2024-06-10 13:25:50

The pharmaceutical industry spends billions of dollars every year looking for any therapeutically active ingredients which may be present in  so -called "traditional " medicines.... most of these researches are money wasted !

I do realise of course that ,without the traditional medical use of willow bark ,we would have never discovered aspirin

Without any doubt, hawthorn berries will have been researched  and researched and researched. To the best of my knowledge these researches have been fruitless in that no active ingredient , and no therapeutic benefit from swallowing them ,has been found

I hope I am wrong because we desperately need more efficacy-proven prescription drugs !

Ian

Research Citations - only if you're interested

by Andiek11 - 2024-06-10 14:04:36

Below are the links to several of the research studies I've reviewed to date.  They range from 1999-2018.  Not trying to prove any particular point just providing additional details for those with interest or want to expand their personal knowledge base.  Again, thanks to all who've responded.  Love the open dialogue.

***********************************

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10546150/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7047282/#:~:text=We%20summarize%20the%20four%20principal,for%20further%20utilization%20of%20hawthorn.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40256-017-0249-9

Thanks Andiek11

by IAN MC - 2024-06-10 14:41:34

The last article certainly looks positive with definite benefits for heart failure patients.

Best of luck with your Hawthorn journey. Please keep us updated,

Ian

Medlineplus

by Penguin - 2024-06-10 18:32:39

Apparently Medline Plus is 'a service provided by the American National Library of Medicine, which brings together reliable information from the National Institutes of Health as well as other health-related organisations'.  

This search may bring up useful natural drug information: 

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/natural/790.html

I haven't checked it out personally and can't profess to know anything about Hawthorn supplements.  

In your situation it sounds well worth a try if conventional medicine doesn't agree with you. I look forward to hearing how you fayre. 

Thank you so much for your excellent work

by Gemita - 2024-06-11 04:14:02

Andie, thank you so much for your excellent research into alternative therapies for a heart condition.  This is something that many of us I am sure are interested in since conventional medication certainly doesn’t have all the answers does it.  

Personally, being on anticoagulation, I would be concerned about the potential for hawthorn to lead to a higher bleeding risk or to interact with some of my other meds.  Nonetheless, I am extremely interested in your research since I have also read about the potential benefits (subject to further trials of course) of hawthorn to help stop lipid retention and therefore plaque formation leading to arterioschelorosis.  Additionally I would really love to come off my beta blocker although like Piglet, I know my heart rate and blood pressure would become volatile (surge or fall) in an instant without it and this would not in any way help to steady my arrhythmias or be safe for me with atrial fibrillation with a rapid ventricular response rate.  On the other hand, if we found hawthorn to be an effective alternative to a beta blocker, we might all benefit?

On a general note I am a great believer in natural remedies for disease when conventional medicine alone may not be enough.  After removal of several tumours and having a left axillary node clearance for metastatic melanoma many years ago, I started taking a variety of vitamins and minerals that I was found to be deficient in.  I had blood, skin and hair analysis testing to confirm this.  I attended the Bristol Cancer Help Centre, UK which focuses on the emotional, mental and spiritual side of our health.  They recommended a whole number of supplements including zinc, magnesium, Vit B6 and B12, Selenium and high dose Vitamin C (non acidic form - powder).  They wrote to my general doctor asking if these could be prescribed under our National Health Service which my doctor surprisingly and kindly authorised.  All supplements were from Nature’s Own, a trusted brand.

We will never know why I made such a complete recovery after being given a poor prognosis, what tipped the balance in my favour.  Perhaps a degree of luck, certainly good surgery under our NHS and my own efforts to change my lifestyle, but perhaps these supplements helped too, to keep my immune system strong.  Indeed my own GP rang me on a number of occasions seeking advice for other patients looking for some hope.  I am no longer taking such a cocktail of vitamins/minerals, but I do take BioCare Vit C  powder which contains Magnesium Ascorbate

Penguin and Gemita

by Andiek11 - 2024-06-11 10:17:37

Penguin, I'm indeed familiar with Medline as well as Pubmed. Great sources of scientific info.  While there are a limited number of articles for which one can get free access to the full text, the good news is that it is very easy to find abstracts that provide the "meat" of the paper.  Of course understanding what they are saying is a different road, but for the most part I can understand the outcomes and shortcommings even if I don't understand all of the biochemistry.  *haha*  

Gemita - there can never be enough emphasis on the points you (and others) have made: 1) our conditions are all unique and varying in severity.  The road I take will be different from others for just this reason.  2) botanical and herbal supplements all have the potential for interactions amongst themselves as well as with other prescription meds, so ONE MUST BE CAREFUL, 3) Never just stop a medication without at least attempting to have a conversation with your health team.  Some of them may be familiar with and even embrace complementary medicines, while others will have a much more negative perspective.  You decide who you want on your team (if you have a choice which often in the US we don't because of insurance).  4) Life is full of uncertaintities but in the end we have to take ownership of what recommendations we choose to follow and the impacts that these choices will have on both the quality and quantity of our lives.  

Hawthorn extracts

by Xtrabeat - 2024-06-13 14:57:38

I think it is certainly worth exploring "alterantive" and traditional remedies when faced with problems that conventional medicine isn't fully resolving. I am always reminded that a lot of the modern drugs derive from natural sources. Hawthorn has some potential as it contains flavonoids and other anti-oxidants which can have health benefits but the scientific (peer reviewed) evidence is sparse. It is also said to enhance the effects of a lot of cardiac medication (beta blockers, calcium channel blockers and nitrates). Unfortuantely it will be difficult to get a standardised dose and always beware of the other additives thrown into the mix! Amazon UK lists about 38 brands with overnight delivery in many cases. I suppose as long as you choose a reputable brand you will be OK. Dosage range between 160 and 900mg per day in divided doses (best to start low I would think although some of the trials used the higher dose). Please let us know how you get on. 

Follow-up and Finger's Crossed

by Andiek11 - 2024-06-16 23:10:01

Appreciate all of the thoughts, offers, cautions and discussion about not only the use of Hawthorn extract but also obtaining safe, standardized tablets / tinctures.  I've relied a lot on Germany's Commissiom E, ("The German Federal Institute for Drugs and Medical Devices Commission E. A committee made up of scientists, toxicologists, doctors, and pharmacists formed by the Germ government in 1978 to find out if herbs sold in Germany are safe and effective".)  I've also relied a lot on a fair number of scientific studies that have been published in peer reviewed journals. (In an earlier post I only listed a few of what i've seen / reviwed).   

In the studies I reviewed, ttime and again I'd see that the compound that was utilized in the studies was a particular formulation of Hawthorn  Extract referred to WS-1442.  This is a extract whose activie ingredients have been identified, verified and standardized from dose to dose and has been documentted. It is formulated in Germany, and has been since at least the 90's, and has been "approved" by Commission E. In general if this extract is consistant and standardized to such a degree that independant,international, scientific studies (which are looking for reproducable results) feel it is appropriate to use for their research then this is good enough proof for me as to which formulation I should be taking to get the best chances of good results,  

As to where to sources it, again after a lot of research I identified a source in Germany that can ship to the US.  (Germany also has indepedent system for verifying if an on-line drug / supplement provider is legitimate).  I've ordered my tabs of WS-1442 and it looks like they should arrive Monday or Tuesday of this week.  (fingers crossed).  

My journey and choices are just that - mine.  We all have to make our own decisions, and I'm by no means putting down any of the drugs that are keeping millions alive and in better health. And after this experiment of mine, I migjt well have to return to beta blockers or something else.  My plan is to start these Hawthorn Extract tabs as soon as they arrive.  My first post-PM echo is supposed to be in early October (about 6 months after placement) which is when I'll find out if my heart is starting to remodel (ie regain some of its lost ejction fraction) which is the ideal goal. I'll keep my fingers crossed for a good outcome and will be sure to update regarding what this particular adventure yields.