Wifi Turned Off?

I chose to have my pacemaker's wifi turned off when the new one was implanted on 1/15/15. The nurses and other staff had more questions why, as well as judgmental responses, than the doctor did. (Maybe he saved it for when I was out during the surgery? ;o) )

They seem to forget that these batteries last a long time...my last one lasted 12 years. Just a brief search online will show all the technical advances during that time frame. According to an article in Forbes magazine, back in 2012 it was discovered the ability to hack them had occurred. No one has had that done yet, but it doesn't take too much out-of-the-box thinking to come up with scenarios within the next 10 years that could cause a lot of havoc and harm to people with pacemakers and defillibrators. Vice President Cheney had his turned off for this reason. Of course, he'd be a specific target where I certainly would not. ;o) However, these are so common anymore, picture a large stadium full of people (or any large venue) and an intelligent knowledgeable person with a computer (they can be very small and we all know how common they are) calmly sitting there inputting a few things, causing havoc with increased speeds, etc.

What does it mean to me to not have it? It means I can't do the phone check. I must go into the office. Ok, my life allows that to me with little inconvenience. My cardiologist said that this can be done even in the office, which means it can be turned back on, too.

Just sharing.



21 Comments

Why???

by bluebowtye - 2015-01-24 01:01:17

My question is - even if hacking into pacemakers was possible why on earth would someone want to do it? What would they get out of it? It's not like our PMs store personal info like bank account or ss #s. Say if you were at a stadium where there was a large crowd of people - how would anyone be able to single out the people with PMs from the people without? It just doesn't make sense to me. I know there are some crazy people out there but someone bragging to their friends because they hacked into someones PM and changed the settings just doesn't seem realistic and I do not see it happening. Even if it could happen, I don't have to worry about it because mine is a Medtronic and my remote transmissions are done through a land line, not wifi.

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion and if it is a concern for you then turning off the wifi will easily solve the problem but I would worry more about having info from your phone or computer hacked than your PM. I have to say I totally agree with Theknotguy on this one.

~Sheila

There are EVIL people...

by donr - 2015-01-24 01:01:40

...in this World that have to be reckoned with. They will, just for the pure meaness of it & their own gratification, pull the wings off flies, torture & kill small animals, and become serial Killers and/or behead people on video. To ignore them is our own peril.

If the capability to hack into a PM/ICD is there, they will use it, so Cathie's concerns are unfortunately real. Perhaps not today, but in just a few yrs. I promise you that they WILL appear. The portal into the programs of our PM/ICD will have to be normally turned off or we WILL run into hackers meaning to do us bodily harm.

Donr

Don't be gentle, just be respectful...

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 01:01:48

I love the spice in your writing, Donr. Anytime any writing makes me pause to truly contemplate the true meaning, I am appreciative. Sure don't want these brain cells falling off any faster than they are! I have found that traditional teachers use more of a cookie cutter approach to teaching writing skills than growing true semantic artists. Just look at the traditional high school reading list, and you'll see what I mean.

I remember the early days of my pacemaker when I had to worry about microwaves, as well as other oddities in life, such as electric garage door openers and the such. Many improvements over the years. I can't believe my current lead is 25 years old. I mentioned to them the possibility of putting in a new one this time since I really don't want another surgery soon. The average life span for my lead type is 20 years. They declined, not wanting to use any approach too soon since I'm still on the younger end...well, kind of. ;o) I hope to have another 30+ years if the brain and body cooperate.

My doctor's only concern seems to be the number of surgeries I've had so far in life (14). That's workable for it is far from any record.

My sister just got her PM a year ago. She was able to get the one that is MRI compatible. I am very jealous. Come to find out, we have a "family trait" regarding the electronics of our hearts...her's just lollygagged along until now, whereas mine was impatient.

Blessings!

Different Personalities

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 01:01:51

Sheila, I appreciate your opinion. I believe personalities have a lot to do with our choices in life, as well as viewpoints. I have always been a "cover your bases" personality. Being a rare one at 17 forty years ago to get a pacemaker, followed by many other instances in life of things that "rarely happen", have left me not too impressed with statistics for making my life decisions.

I didn't share what I did in order to take a vote on varying opinions. I shared with a bit of hesitancy, which has clearly been validated, with simply an intent to provide an option/consideration for others, knowing that many would not even know about it.

My simple mind can't even comprehend the minds that impart such evil as is currently seen in this world. Nor can I even contemplate the ways any of this could be used to cause great harm to many. No need to let myself even go there past a simple point: What I can do, I shall do.

My decision brings no harm to others or even to myself. I have no expectations of others to do it my way. I respect fully those who believe differently. My opinion of their choice in an instant such as this is really a moot point.

Full Disclosure Allows Wisdom

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 02:01:11

I would hate to have anyone freak out due to this conversation. It can be disconcerting enough realizing that a pacemaker is needed. There is strength in knowledge, so the focus should be on that. My doctor said that it could be turned on and off in the office, not just during surgery. So, decisions are much less stressful when contemplating. I'd suggest verifying that it can be done in the office just in case my doctor was wrong. (Of course, only if one is interested.)

Here's a link to consider. Whether one agrees or not is not the point. Just education of issues and choices for all to know about if desired.

opinions

by bluebowtye - 2015-01-24 02:01:39

Yes, I agree. My position is anyone has the right to do whatever they want and it's none of my business. However, since it was brought up I shared my opinion because I don't want people who might be needing a PM in the future to read this and freak out about it and let it cloud their decision.

Link...sorry!

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 02:01:56

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericbasu/2013/08/03/hacking-insulin-pumps-and-other-medical-devices-reality-not-fiction/

Internet of Things

by SaraTB - 2015-01-24 03:01:03

This is of course one of the issues with wi-fi connected appliances: washing machines you can control from your phone, light bulbs etc: how secure is your wifi? The devices themselves aren't because the manufacturers aren't tech manufacturers and security isn't high on their priorities - yet.
I don't have a wifi enabled PM, so far, so for me it's only theoretical. However, as I have straightforward 3rd degree heartblock, I don't think it's necessary to have constant monitoring of my device: my EP agreed to let me stop phone monitoring (this degree of monitoring is unusual in other countries, for heart conditions like mine, in any case).

So, for me, I probably would have it turned off, because like Don I don't want another device, and our profligate use of electricity in the west bothers me already.

Of course, one of the other things we can do to protect ourselves is to maintain secure wifi networks in our homes - make sure your router is protected; has the latest security software; use a guest network for visitors to keep your own password secure.

PM manufacturers ought to provide a means to limit the PM to your home network and your doctor's office. But then, that might exclude a hospital in an emergency.

Extremely Harsh reality is that....

by donr - 2015-01-24 03:01:58

...medical facilities of all types are chock full of electronic digital "stuff" that is NOT protected from hacking right now. And - no one truly knows the vulnerabilities of it.

There are inadequate firewalls & other shielding to protect them. When you get into medical devices, they are stringently protected from radiating, & in theory from receiving radiation noise that affects their electronics. But it gets violated all the time. Software does not get updated at appropriate intervals.

Another issue is the legal responsibility that software providers have for their work. Put a piece of equipment out in a med facility & someone needs to keep the latest upgrades on it. Does it always happen? I wonder - since the mfgr of the equipment does not control who does the job & hence cannot truly be responsible for its currency.

Further, there are not always adequate systems in place to see to the proper calibration against NIST standards (In the US). It's a very tough job to do even the calibration function.

Electrical maintenance is an expensive chore, given that there are so many devices that are used in OR/ER/Clinics where there are severe fire hazards due to the O2 being used. Pile on the requirements to protect patients against electric shock from the myriad of electrical equipment & you add a real significant expense to health care.

Donr

Response to Voice of Reason

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 10:01:14

Well, disappointment continually rises as I see attitudes such as your's. You are dealing with the "here and now", thoroughly forgetting that this battery within each of us is in for a good amount of years ahead. The advancement of technology is far above what us "lay" people are even aware even now (of which I am thankful), and it would be naïve to think that much can occur in the next 10 years that could become a "real" concern to us with pacers. If the only drawback to not having wifi is that I have to give up the convenience of being tested in my own home, why is it not mine to make without such rudeness coming from such as you? At this point in our country, we are still allowed the right to the method used for testing. (I would have said given, but that would imply that choices were actually given to us prior to surgery such as type of pacemaker, where the surgery is done... type of anesthesia, do you want to talk to the rep, any questions...)

Why my choice and my reason inclined you to such an arrogant insulting response is beyond me. There is a lot to be said of wisdom that plans ahead, particularly in a situation where we are held long-term with each new pacer received. This planning does not affect my life's joy, nor does it quell my ability to live life to the fullest.

Nowhere did you see me insinuating others should do it, nor did you see me insulting any who would choose otherwise. I was respectful, recognizing the uniqueness of each of us, as well as the right to make such choices without being judged. This forum is one for education and encouragement, not condemnation...at least I thought so.

I am very thankful that no pacemaker has been hacked yet, and may my concern never pose a reality. May I suggest you take you new chance at life and incorporate a bit of kindness and respect towards others who are different than you. It goes a long way to living life to the fullest...unless all you desire is to do so selfishly.

Voice of reason

by Theknotguy - 2015-01-24 10:01:45

If you would check my posting on "Hacking Pacemakers" you'll see most of your fears are unfounded. It is possible to hack a pacemaker, but it's also possible to be struck by a meteor too. You don't hear very much about meteor strikes. So while it is possible, it is very unlikely.

Addressing some of your points: Yes, Dick Cheney was a specific target. Won't argue that. Did they need to turn off his access - probably not, but I'm not a paranoid as some people.

Your comment,"However, these are so common anymore,,," Actually pacemakers are not. Current estimates are just over 3 million. Haven't been able to get good statistics if that three million is USA only, or worldwide. So the population density of people with pacemakers just isn't as high as you think. Population of the State of Ohio, where I live, is just under 12 million. If all three million lived in Ohio, that would mean one person in about every four would have a pacemaker. Population of the USA is about 316 million.

Taking the above numbers, if the three million are in the USA, that means 1 person in 105 million has a pacemaker. So while they appear to be common, they really aren't. Especially when you compare it to something like glasses for correcting vision. Taking the same numbers, that means a person walking around a sports stadium with an attendance of 150,000 (Like our OSU football games) might be able to find one or two individuals with pacemakers. They would actually find more people at the OSU hospital (which can be seen from the stadium) than in the stadium itself. Pacemakers just aren't that common even though we'd like to think they are.

Also, if you look at my posting, you'll see where a study conducted at the University of Michigan concluded a hacker would have to be within one or two inches of the PM site to possibly cause any problems. So a person walking around with any equipment they can carry just won't be able to cause any kind of havoc. It just isn't possible for a person to scale up equipment to cause any problems. So you don't have to worry about someone broadcasting RFI strong enough to bother a pacemaker. It isn't possible for something the size of a laptop to generate enough power to cause a problem with a pacemaker.

I go by two television towers broadcasting at thousands of watts of power with absolutely no problems. Any person trying to build equipment that would broadcast enough RFI even with today's micro circuits would need something about the size of a semi-tractor trailer unit to get anywhere close to something that might cause a problem with a pacemaker.

I also pointed out in my posting a person or group doing these things needs four things to accomplish their objective. They need money, time, equipment, and the knowledge necessary to accomplish their sordid goal. It isn't possible for a kid with an Arduino or Raspberry Pi that he got for Christmas to cause problems with a pacemaker. He doesn't have the equipment necessary, doesn't have the knowledge, doesn't have the time, doesn't have the money. It just isn't going to happen.

One other thing, people who would attempt these things go for large numbers. It's much more effective and spectacular to go after large gatherings of people where many people will be affected than to go for one person out of the next 106 million that walk by. Just isn't enough return on your investment. Not to mention going after a bunch of helpless people in a rest home, hospital,or cardiologist's office doesn't get you the kind of notoriety you want.

I'm sure my voice of reason will be totally ignored. If thinking someone can mess with your pacemaker using a battery and couple pieces of wire really floats your boat, I'm sure you'll go right on ahead thinking that way.
It's much more fun going around like Chicken Little screaming, "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

For me, I'm going out and living my life to the fullest. I'm one of the very, very lucky few who got a second and a third chance. I'm not going to waste time being paranoid worrying about something that just isn't going to happen.

Response to Telemetry Option

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-24 10:01:53

Oh, I really like your style of writing. Humorous, intelligent, and requiring the use of a few brain cells to grasp intent fully. lol

You have obviously experienced some of the changes that I have, finding them as unimpressive as I do. I consider us moving into a society of "factory" type behavior with little voice in areas where we once received the option of choice and treatment of caring respect.

Despite these changes, I am very thankful to have such a device for my medical issue. Having it for 40 years thus far, I can honestly say that it has allowed me the privilege of my 3 children, and a very normal life in most ways. "Life to the fullest" wouldn't have been possible without it.

Thank you for responding as you did. Your intelligence obviously goes beyond an IQ.

Telemetry option

by donr - 2015-01-24 10:01:59

Last week I had a periodic PM check in my Cardio's office.

He recently sold his soul to the Devil called Emory Clinic, part of a major Hosp in Atlanta, Georgia.

Boy, how service has changed since the change. The discomfort goes beyond a bunch of dinosaurs not liking the new world order. He has had to change his entire M.O. in many ways that are not really to his liking. In particular, they have put the screws to him about the time he spends per patient - namely 15 minutes per visit, whereas he was spending about 30 min. This means we can no longer discuss the existence if Ringhal's Cobra in the SE Africa veldt or the reasons why hospitals always put the path lab in the basement.

On a lighter note, last Oct when I went in for my quarterly PM Check & ECG check, instead of the old familiar Medtronic Rep who knew all about my PM & could answer any question, I met a pair of techs out of the central PM clinic of the Emory Midtown Hosp. I have seen more intelligent Keystone Kops movie clips than that visit was. I swear that I knew more about what was going on than they did. In the previous procedure, after the Medtronic Rep did the interrogation & his/her company diagnostics, we all crowded into the ex-mop closet that doubled as an exam room & held a seance w/ interaction between & among all present. All discussion was out in the open & interesting. It also allowed for my Cardio & the PM experts to ponder my questions between themselves & give me an answer (or if they did not know the answer, to make one up that sounded plausible )

Back to last week: One of the nurses did the PM check & told me that the procedure was in transition - the downtown Keystone Kops would be back to visiting their clinic & doing the PM checks & I would meet w/ my Cardio at a later date to discuss the check. Also, that I was going to be sent a remote monitor so "I wouldn't have to come in to the office any more" & they would call me if anything popped up. My response was "Tell them that if they send me a monitor that I will throw it in the trash & refuse to use it." She was horrified at my attitude about the monitor. Actually, if they send me a monitor, they will be greeted with language that only old soldiers reserve for things they don't like, followed by them hearing over the phone the sounds of me smashing the device w/ a hammer.

The monitor is one more way that the economics of the medical world has reduced us patients to mere numbers w/o any humanity at all. If we are worth treating, we deserve a decent amount of time w/ our care givers to allow interaction and a chance to develop a sense of confidence that we are really known to the Dr.

Donr

Theknotguy

by IAN MC - 2015-01-24 11:01:02

A little project for you . Re- calculate your sums . you worked out that 1 person in 105 million has a pacemaker !

How come I know 6 people with pacemakers who are members of my golf club ?

I think you got your noughts mixed up ( to a massive extent ! )

Cheers

Ian

I'm just a sorehead iconoclast!!!

by donr - 2015-01-24 12:01:16

Cathie: I absolutely LOVE my PM & am a piker compared to you in the longevity category. I rec'd mine in Feb 2003, followed by a lead replacement at the 4 yr mark & a new PM in 2010.

PM hosting doesn't just run in my family - it absolutely gallops! My maternal Grandmother got one back in the 1970's. I have two uncles on that side of the family who host them, also. I got mine younger than any of them, however.

My little buddy & I are the best of friends - he goes where I go, does what I do - whether he likes it or not.

We have gotten to meet some really neat people in my Cardio's office, such that a visit there had become over the yrs a social event, rather than a medical event.

I draw the line at the monitor, however. That device is the Devil's handiwork & I become the world's worst Luddite, armed w/ a hammer & a vocabulary that would make an angry Marine blush if I asked him to pass the potatoes while discussing it. I ranks up there w/ TV & home theatre remotes. I don't have any teen aged grand kids to program the devices for me & they (the remotes, not the Grand kids) are continually doing things that cause me to get my mouth washed out w/ Lifebouy Soap by my good Wife. (I can see the early symptoms of Lifebuoy Soap Blindness coming on & have ordered the red-tipped cane.) Our #1 Son programmed the latest one for our downstairs system. It took him 2 days to do it & he downloaded an App for our cell phones & turned them into the remotes. He's working on a PhD in Electrical Engineering, so what he left us causes great consternation when things go wrong.

The last thing we need around here is another electronic gadget that goes "BEEP!" in the middle of the night & takes up electric outlet plug space in the bedroom. Right now we have an outlet box on each side of the bed. Each of us has a powerstrip w/ six outlets on them to handle things like a phone charger to hold the cell phone at night that's doubling as an alarm clock, a device to allow you to turn the lamp off by touching a button, a CPAP machine, a charger for the TV remote & the nightstand lamp. Speaking of going "Beep!", I cannot hear any of those "Beeps!" so they drive poor Wife nutso - she hears them & I have to fix them.

BTW: Thanks for the nice words. You are doing better than all the freshman English Composition instructors I had in College. They wore out red pens critiquing my horrible attempts to make sense out of esoteric blatherings masquerading as essays & commentaries that we read in the course. I guess that means that I will have tio be all nicey, nicey to you, now. Nah - that would be contrary to my normal approach to life.

Cheers!

Donr

Hello

by mytrose43 - 2015-01-25 02:01:00

I Must say interesting topic I just received a wifi capable st jude pacemaker and I also received the merlin @ home box the only thing that crossed my mind was how cool this was they run periodic checks every 3 months and monitor if any problems arise in between while I still see the Dr every 6 months for in office Pm checks so seems to me it is the best of both worlds .It never ever crossed my mind of being hacked I guess everyone is different I am thankful for having this new technology ...

Bear Brain

by Alma Annie - 2015-01-25 05:01:03

I feel like Winnie the Pooh, a bear with little brain, at least as far as technology is concerned. What is a Wi Fi connected pm?. We are connected to WI Fi on internet etc. But pm?!! I also have a remote monitor that I transmit the info every 3 months, then have a yearly check with cardio/Ep and Medtronic Tech. I don't hear anything about remote unless things are not right. So I have never heard anything. Can I please be instructed in these matters? Thanks
Alma Annie

Alma Annie, I was as you...

by cathieflorida1 - 2015-01-25 08:01:49

Alma Annie, I didn't have a clue about wireless for PM either until I saw that VP Cheney had his turned off. Then I did what I always do once my head is pulled from out of the sand, making the decision I felt most right for me. The wireless capabilities in our PM allows for the conveniences we have for being monitored at home, as well as ease of even some form of the in-office testing and resetting. I'm sure more learned contributors can add to this. Blessings!

Alma Annie

by bluebowtye - 2015-01-26 10:01:23

Hi Alma Annie,

Wifi enabled pacers can allow your doctor / device clinic to get your transmission remotely using wireless technology. Not everyone is able to do this. I see you have a Medtronic, so do I. When I do my remote transmission I plug my monitor into my land line (phone jack) and hold a wand over my pacer and push some buttons and the data is sent through the land line, like a fax machine. Your clinic's number is programmed into it and it goes directly there for your Dr. to check. If this is how you do your transmissions then you are perfectly safe from anyone being able to hack into your pacer as even if you have the wifi capability, it is turned off.

Hope this helps answer your questions!
~Sheila

I guess I was trying to say . . .

by SaraTB - 2015-01-26 12:01:58

I'm sure that the network connection to the PM is unique to the monitor, not part of the home system. But what I was trying to express (badly) was that we are far more vulnerable to hacking, to our financial information, our identities, from our own domestic systems, our wi-fi enabled other devices. We should probably be more worried and proactive about protecting our digital lives from identity theft, which is far more likely to be attacked, than the extraordinarily small chance of someone getting close enough to re-program our PMs.

On the other hand, I think it's always worth having the conversations, and reviewing what MIGHT happen down the road . . . (eg: do I worry about Government accessing my personal data, now? Not really: but I do worry what granting legal permission might mean for the world in 20 years)

It's always interesting to have these discussions!

Enjoyed the banter...

by Ladyfish - 2015-03-09 09:03:40

...something that doesn't happen often on this site!

And, I understand both sides...Although I have a new Medtronics Viva that has the box. It's plugged into an old phone jack (we don't use it anymore) in the bedroom. At anytime, if there is an issue, and I go by the box it will pick up the transmission and send the info to my cardiologist's office. I may not even know there is a problem...yet.

So, while I respect those that like automobiles whose windows still roll up with a crank handle...I'll keep my magic box:)


You know you're wired when...

Titanium is your favorite metal.

Member Quotes

Focus on the good and not the bad.