Is it ok?

Good evening everyone. I have some concerns that I'm hoping someone much more knowledgeable than myself can help me with. As some of you know I just had surgery at the end of July. I had one 26 year old lead replaced and a new Pacer put in. My surgeon said he was not happy with me returning to my job because he feels that could have something to do with the problems I was having.
So, here's the thing. I need some solid advice on if my job could have caused the issues I was having.
I work for a company that makes pharmaceutical film. I work around high voltage machinery every day. Our machines were originally designed to slit paper. They are called Cameron skitters. I can't seem to find out much about them because our machines are from the WWII era. We also use coron treaters on our film. They treat with ozone. There is a daily risk of static shock from the film and the treaters. The material we use is called Aclar. This stuff is so toxic that it eats stainless steel.
I also lift 50 pound rolls several times a day and have to push 600 - 800 pound rolls on carts which weigh around 200 pounds.
On top of all that I work 7 day, backward swing shift.
Sounds pretty cut and dry that this is NOT a job that I should be doing, but I need some hard evidence to back it up, as I work for a fortune 100 company that would fight any kind of disability claim tooth and nail.
I greatly appreciate any advice anyone can offer as I just don't know what to do.
Thanks,
Carol

13 Comments

oops

by Carol M - 2012-09-17 08:09:17

Cameron slitters, not skitters

grrr

by Carol M - 2012-09-17 08:09:38

I obviously shouldn't have posted this from my phone. Corona treaters not coron

Lead Extraction - Great news

by donr - 2012-09-17 10:09:31

Carol. Missed your post on getting the lead out. Good show!

As to the present issues. Realize that I am not your Dr. Just a simple-minded electrical engineer. I answer questions from that standpoint, & applying the "common-sense test."

So you had a lead that lasted 25+ yrs. And how long have you had the current slavery-type job? (Remind me not to armwrestle you.)

First - I'd say that any correlation between job & PM/lead failure is truly coincidental. Those leads have already been in there far longer than their expected life span.

Second - The chemiclas you deal with are not getting into your body, are they? If so, how on earth are they gettnig to your leads,which are totaly encapsulated in your blood stream? If they are as bad as you say,OSHA would have a cow if you got exposed to any of it at all.

Third - Static shock should NOt affect your PM.Static electricity remains on the OUTSIDE of your body - doesn't penetrate it. Does it ever make the hair on your arms or on your head "Stand on end?" That's evidence it is totally on the outside. Ever get Zapped by static electricity in the dead of the PA winter when getting out of your car? That didn't fry your PM, did it? I don't think that static electricity should be a deterent to PM life, either.

Fourth - Ozone will not do your system any good. As I recall, Ozone is toxic if you get enough of it. It is very powerful oxidizer & quite reactive, causing respiratory problems, so that should not be getting to your PM to affect it.

Fifth - Dunno about the physical labor. that sounds pretty bad - but again, how long have you been doing it w/o ill effect being noticeable?

Conclusion - you are going to have a very tough time getting ay sort of disability out of this. Unless your Dr. knows something I don't, your Co. will have pretty decent grounds to oppose you.

Which comes down to the question - "What do YOU think about the job?" Do YOU think it has caused any of your problems?

If your Co is as big as you say, they will have industrial safety & health folks lined up ten deep ready to counter your application.

I'd say that if YOU don't feel strongly enough to fight a long fight, against an implacable foe, ready to destroy you or make your life miserable, Your grounds are pretty weak.

As an engineer, I could write one heck of a rebuttal to a claim based on your Dr. "... feels that {your job} could have something to do with the problems I was having" w/o some hard evidence to back up his conclusions.

Don

Ozone

by donr - 2012-09-17 11:09:18

Carol: Ozone is NOT good for your lungs. But THAT is another issue, totally unrelated to your PM.

Did your Dr. give you anything SPECIFIC about HOW the job could be affecting your PM?

How often do you get static shocks? Also - how do they compare to the static shocks you get from your car in the winter?

Don't they have any sort of static electricity dissipation systems? I know that a lot of systems running polymer films have a bar that stretches across the film that has a mild radioactve source in it. The small amount of radioactivity ionizes the air locally and dissipates the static charge. Getting a shock from the machinery sounds odd- usually that stuff is well grounded & that keeps workers safe from static.

Do you have a union representing your group? These sound like a couple safety issues for a Union-Management safety committee to address. Not because of your PM, but on general principles!

I'm 76 yrs old & not about to armwrestle ANY 43 yr old woman who can hoist 50 lb rolls of film & push carts weighing neary 1,000 lbs.

Don

Relief

by Carol M - 2012-09-17 11:09:51

Don,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I don't WANT to leave my job. My doc just scared me to death.
Is my job physically demanding? Yes, most definitely, but I would think if there were to be adverse effects they would have shown up before now. I have been here for a little over 2 years.
I definitely would NOT want to go up against the company I work for. I would be crushed.
The ozone is pretty bad here. Our outside air filtration system doesn't work well and the smell can be pretty intense. The only other comment I have to make is that the static shocks are not make your hair stand up shocks. They are run through whichever part of your body happens to come in contact with the material or machinery in question and who knows where its gonna come out kind of shocks. They can be pretty intense, but I have never felt like things weren't 'right' because of them. I try to avoid that as much as possible ;)
And, come on, be a sport. I'm just a 'girl'. Bet you could take me at arm wrestling. Lol

A Mea Cupa on Static

by donr - 2012-09-18 02:09:59

Frank: Dang! I hate it when you are right! When it is static, it does collect over the outside of the body.

Till you discharge it, then it follows the path of least resistance, meaning through body fuids, if necessary, in its rush to redistribute itself elsewhere.

Did your experiments demonstrate what happens to a static charge on a body when it is dissipated- does it remain distributed over the surface while rushing to the ground point?

I can see how it would not were you to act as a path for discharging another object.

What is your take on why you only feel a discharge event at the point of contact? I have aways rationalized it as being because you feel it at a point of high resistance - the spot where the charge jumps the gap between you & the grounding surface. If you are holding a key in your hand & ground yourself through that, you do not feel it, even though you can see the spark at the point of contact. Your tight grip on the key makes that a low resistace point.

Don

Chemicals

by Carol M - 2012-09-18 03:09:29

Don,
The one thing that I forgot to address was the aclar. It depends on what form it is in as to wether it can enter the body.
In powder form, aclon, it is inhaled and we have been told flat out not to touch the powder without gloves on. When working with the powder it is recommended, but not manditory to wear face masks.
Then it is turned into pellet form. Again, told not to touch it.
From pellet form it is extruded into film.
From this point we handle it freely.
So, I don't understand how it goes from untouchable to touchable just from changing it from powder to film.
I am not an engineer though.

Sorry for the delay in answering!

by Carol M - 2012-09-18 03:09:59

Sorry guys, I am at work. Go figure ;)
Don,
He gave me nothing specific. Just concerns for the type of work I do and the machinery I work around. Something about magnetization.
The shocks are more like Frank describes. They enter the body at whatever point you are in contact with the film or machine and exit usually at floor level. So, its pretty significant. It depends on the material we are running as to how often the shocks happen. We put a leader web on some of our films and that stuff arcs while it is running and that's without the treater on, With the treater on its much worse.
We do have ion bars, but they do not run the length of the machines. The one machine in particular has an ion brush that is about 2' in length that hangs on the side of the machine. I don't even know if its functional to be honest.
Union? That's funny. We are one of only 2 plants WORLDWIDE that do not have a union. We have tried unsuccessfully to get a union in here since I started working at this plant. All of the older guys that have been here 20+ years shot it down. So, no union rep to help.
The ozone issues have been brought up repeatedly, but it seems to not be heard by management. They aren't out on the floor, so they don't really get how bad it can be. There are days when I leave with such a tremendous headache because of the smell.
I wish I could go into specific details, but I can't afford to lose my job, which is why I am keeping things a vague as I can.
I guess I will let you off on the arm wrestling thing :)
Frank,
Not confusing at all. Thank you for that. I was beginning to think maybe I was over reacting to the shocks.
Angrysparrow,
I will keep the lawyer option open. Right now I am just trying to see if there is any substance to my doctors concerns. I truly am not trying to prove anything. If I could find another job that pays as well as this one you can bet I would do it. This job is very hard on the body, and on my family. It's an income that we need though.

ok

by manaman - 2012-09-18 06:09:18

your best bet is to make sure they are OSHA compliant! The rest is touch and go!
I worked for a company that was heavily filled with carbide/cobalt dust and grinding metals in a water solution for many years until I could take no more!
I kept a daily record of exposures,etc for the last three years (didn't mean a thing when issues were pushed). Only thing I did do was get central dust collection system and a personal self contined respirator for myself and a few other things. To do this I had to stay in close contact with OSHA reps. Good thing about these guys is they can come in basically unannounced at any time day or night. Other than that, even IF the doctors will side with you then you BEST HAVE A ROCK SOLID CASE!
Bottom line is you cannot beat city hall!
I do suggest that you DO use ANY type filteration (face mask etc. that is offered). Infact I think I would DEMAND a mask of some sort!
Bottom line: Look after ourself, noone else will.
Got any idea what the cancer/heart related ratio is there?
Good Luck,
Cecil
Cecil

Correction

by ElectricFrank - 2012-09-18 12:09:48

It really doesn't change anything from what has been suggested, but the common wisdom that static electricity is on the outside of the the body can be misleading. If I discharge the static electricity from my body by touching a grounded object the charges from the entire surface of my body will need to follow a path to the ground. The current will follow the most conductive route which is through body fluids to the ground point.

Keep in mind that the "static" in static electricity only means the charge isn't changing. Otherwise, it follows ohms law etc like any other current.

Hope this isn't too confusing. I had a couple of lab experiments I used when teaching that illustrated the concept. That was the only way I could get it across.

frank

Taking on the BIG GUYS

by Carol M - 2012-09-19 10:09:27

Cecil,
There is no WAY I would take on the company I work for. They are entirely too big. I would not only lose, I would be crushed.
I just wanted to make sure that my pacemaker would not be effected by my workplace. That has been proven to me, so I am a happy camper in that respect.
As to the other concerns, hopefully at some point those things will be addressed. I just don't want to be the one to stir the pot, because I NEED my job. If that sounds like a cop out, yes, I guess it is. I can't afford to take on the giant though.

Don

by ElectricFrank - 2012-09-19 12:09:52

The reason we feel it at the point of discharge into skin is that there is a higher current density, which stimulates only a few nerve endings. This allows even a very small actual current to reach the threshold of feeling.

By the way, here in the desert holding a metal object won't always prevent noticeable shock. The whole thing gets complex when you analyze it. Our body is one pate of a capacitor with the surroundings the other plate. The closer we are to a surrounding conductive surface the higher the capacitance, and therefore the charge (joules). One experiment I had my students do was to stand on a carpeted floor in a small closet lined with a conductive surface and shuffle their feet. Even reaching out with a metal object in hand would emit a loud snap and result in dropping it.

There are a lot of things that can be tried, but bottom line "static" electricity is really the same stuff that's in wires, batteries, or electric chairs. It follows the same laws of voltage, current, resistance, inductance, capacitance, frequency, and total energy. The numbers are just a bit different.

Very low voltage, high current has it's own issues. A 2 volt lead acid battery won't shock you, but get a ring between it's terminals, and the current will turn it red to white hot in seconds. A painful way to ablate a twitching ring finger.

So the inevitable Pop Quiz: is the charge on the capacitor in an ICD static electricity?

frank

No cop out

by ElectricFrank - 2012-09-20 12:09:01

Makes a lot of sense to me.

I learned many years ago to never ask anyone in authority if it is OK to do something. The answer will always be NO. So my approach has been to just do it, and play dumb if confronted. Some have insisted I didn't have to PLAY to seem dumb. (:

frank

You know you're wired when...

Your device makes you win at the slot machines.

Member Quotes

I'm 35 and got my pacemaker a little over a year ago. It definitely is not a burden to me. In fact, I have more energy (which my husband enjoys), can do more things with my kids and have weight because of having the energy.